Amos 3:7 A Love of The Truth
Amos37 goes boldly where most won't—the Truth! It covers current Church trends, NAR, Dominionism, the Occult in The Church, Contemplative Prayer, Seeker-Sensitive, Purpose-Driven, Emergent, New-Age Spirituality, Yoga, Social Gospel, Culture Wars, and, yes, the Bible.
Bible Prophecy is Evangelism and much more to get the gospel out. We also cover occult influences and Hollywood's War on God exposes loaded with free video and audio with documentation. We will try to demonstrate a biblical worldview that the Bible is a living book that will both bless and shock you. Do you have a topic you want us to cover?
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Amos 3:7 A Love of The Truth
Occultism in the World with CANA - Marcia Montenegro Explains Occult Practices
Ever wondered how the lines between spirituality and entertainment blur in today's world? Join us as we unravel this complex tapestry with Marcia Montenegro, an expert from Christian Answers for the New Age with Once Lost Ministries.
Marcia takes us on a captivating journey through her past life as a professional astrologer entrenched in the New Age community. She details a path that led her from astrology to a newfound Christian faith. Her insights shed light on the subtle yet significant ways that occult practices and beliefs infiltrate the mainstream, often masked by everyday media and cultural norms.
Our conversation takes a serious look at the church's dangers in maintaining its holiness and distinctiveness in an age where genuine worship is sometimes replaced by entertainment.
Do modern media and popular literature unintentionally—or perhaps intentionally—promote occult principles? We explore the impact of children's series like Harry Potter and the seemingly innocuous Magic Treehouse books, questioning their potential role in desensitizing young minds to real occult practices.
As we navigate these tricky waters, Marcia's personal anecdotes and professional observations offer an invaluable perspective on the need for discernment.
For those concerned with the intersection of health practices and spirituality, we delve into the realm of modern healing methods, cautioning against New Age practices like Reiki and naturopathy that conflict with Christian beliefs.
The conversation offers a critical exploration of how these practices are subtly weaving their way into healthcare, even within Christian communities, posing potential spiritual dangers. Through it all, we emphasize the importance of returning to scriptural teachings and seeking biblical guidance, encouraging listeners to remain vigilant and grounded in their faith.
Don't miss this thought-provoking episode as we continue to challenge, inform, and inspire our audience.
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We have learned to live with unholiness and have come back to look upon it as the natural, unexpected thing. But holiness and spiritual power go together. The church that is not holy is not powerful.
Flynn Huseby:The only reason we don't have revival is because we are willing to live without it.
Kyle Peart:The glory of the gospel is that when the church is absolutely different from the world, she invariably attracts it. The church they can't worship must be entertained, and men who can't leave a church to worship must provide the entertainment.
Marcia Montenegro:Going to church doesn't make you a Christian, any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile.
Kyle Peart:The world is now waiting for a new definition of the gospel but for a new demonstration of the power of the gospel.
Flynn Huseby:We must never rest until everything inside us worships God. The greatest tragedy is a sick church in a dying world. The church is so subnormal that if it ever got back to the New Testament, normal it would seem to people to be abnormal.
Flynn Huseby:There is nothing more important in the Christian life than to be clear about the doctrine of the atonement. Well, good morning everybody. It is October 12, 2024. Welcome to Once Lost Ministries. I am Kyle Peart and I'm Flynn Huesby, and our goal today is to encourage the believer to reach out to where we once were. Like and subscribe if you haven't already, and for those that are new here. Our goal is twofold to grow and know Jesus more, and the fruit of that is we will go, naturally go share him. So, growing and going. Welcome to the show. Today is part one of a three-part series where we're going to discuss the occult, and we're going to be talking with Marsha Montenegro today from Christian Answers for the New Age. You can find her resources at christiananswersnewagecom. Marcia. Thank you so much for joining us. Welcome and say hello.
Marcia Montenegro:Yes, hello. Thank you for having me on your program. I really appreciate it and I look forward to what we discuss and to any questions people have. I do like to answer questions we discuss and to any questions people have. I do like to answer questions. So don't be shy to anybody listening, please. Please feel free to ask questions about what I say or my story or anything wonderful.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, I put in the chat for, uh, anyone that wants to, to specifically address or comment or question on something, to put question in there. It sticks out to me so please do that and we'd be happy to jump on that and I'll follow the chats as we go along. Marcia, tell us a little bit about yourself first, to introduce to the people that may not be familiar with you, and just your background, why you have so much insight on the occult insight on the occult.
Marcia Montenegro:Okay, sure, I was in what is called the new age for at least 20 years. I got interested in really in high school, I would say, or maybe even a little bit earlier in things like astrology and ghosts and things like that. I didn't pursue, I wasn't really able to pursue it at that age. I didn't have the means and there was no internet at the time. I'm sure if there had been an internet I would have been on it looking all these things up. So I couldn't do that. So in college I was able to explore a little bit more, but not that much. I also got interested in Eastern religions.
Marcia Montenegro:Now in college that was something that really became a big interest of mine and stayed with me until years later when I was able to investigate more deeply. So I really had two areas that were drawing me very strongly. One was the paranormal and the world of the occult, astrology in particular, and the other was Eastern religions. And the other was Eastern religions and after I got out of college and I had more time to read and explore, I was doing a lot of reading on contact with the dead.
Marcia Montenegro:I had an experience when I was in college where I thought a dead person appeared to me, and I mean, a person did appear to me and I thought they were dead. I'll put it that way. They looked. A person did appear to me and I thought they were dead. I'll put it that way. They looked like a person, I mean, but they weren't an actual flesh and blood person, it was an apparition and he told me what day he had died and what year, and so I was very drawn to that for a while and reading a lot of things on that and eventually I started. I went to psychics. I went to a palm reader for my 16th birthday. That was what I wanted. I told my mother that's what I wanted for my birthday present.
Flynn Huseby:So she took my Southern.
Marcia Montenegro:Baptist mother, so she took me to one and I just had that very strong leaning towards those areas. Now, as time went by after school and I was reading a lot of stuff and getting into the idea of reincarnation and Hinduism and then Tibetan Buddhism. So then I started to actively get involved in groups and I learned to do Tibetan Buddhist meditation. I took a class called Inner Light Consciousness which was run by this group At the time. I don't know if they're still there. They were in southwestern Virginia, but they traveled all over. I was in Atlanta, georgia during this time, which is where I went several months after I graduated, and Atlanta Georgia had a very, very thriving New Age community very thriving.
Marcia Montenegro:And so there were lots of objects there, there was all kinds of things to explore, and so I took this class in the light consciousness and basically it was a crash course in the New Age and we did a meditation every night, a guided meditation, and the teacher would guide us through this meditation and on the last night he said that he would introduce us to our spiritual master. The spiritual master would be with us the rest of our lives and we would be able to contact the spiritual master and he or she would contact us initially through this meditation that we were doing, but he said eventually you won't need that anymore. So anyway, I, you know, I went through the guided meditation and I saw what I thought was my spiritual master and actually, from that moment on, he was with me all the time. I was very aware of his presence and I didn't interact with him in the sense that I didn't have conversations with him or ask him his name or anything. This was basically what's called a spirit guide.
Flynn Huseby:Okay.
Marcia Montenegro:And uh, but I did feel his presence and a few times I saw him in dreams, uh, so he was definitely like kind of part of my life. It's kind of like he was just there all the time, or at least I felt like he was, but I I think he was um and then I decided I wanted to get really involved in something that I could do myself and I, since I had such a strong interest in astrology and there were astrology classes being offered.
Marcia Montenegro:I took the classes and atlanta was in um kind of an unusual situation in that you could get certified by the city to practice astrology no way um and, yeah, this was actually set up by the astrologers and the city council in order to keep out scam artists, because at the time now this is before I came onto the scene this happened before. But what, what, what it was is that there was a city law against fortune telling and that included astrology. This is true in a lot of cities and there's probably a lot of cities where there are ordinances on the books against fortune telling. This is very common, because there are a lot of what are called scam artists doing fortune telling. So there was an astrologer there who wanted to change that.
Marcia Montenegro:So they decided that they would make you take a test to show you really knew astrology. And so if you were a scam artist who didn't really know astrology, you wouldn't pass the test. And so they said you have to get a business license, but you have to prove that you know astrology by taking a test. So that's what happened. So it's a seven hour exam by taking a test. So that's what happened. So it's a seven hour exam. I took the exam, I passed it, I got a business license and I started practicing as a professional astrologer and I also, prior to that, I also had taken classes in numerology and palm reading, past life regression and some other areas. So I was kind of into a lot of different things, but I focused on astrology.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, so I became. I became a professional astrologer and I had clients and I was part of the uh atlanta astrological Society. I eventually became president and I was also on the Atlanta Board of Astrology Examiners, which is the board that formulates the exam that you take at City Hall and that grades the exam. You know, because if you don't pass then you can't get your business license.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah.
Marcia Montenegro:So I was very, very involved. Plus, I was teaching astrology and so my whole world was kind of revolved around astrology. I was writing for New Age and astrological magazines also, and I was on the Speakers Bureau. So I was speaking in Atlanta to groups that would contact the Astrological Society and ask for a speaker. So I spoke to like Parents Without Partners. I spoke to the Lions Club, I spoke at a school. So you know, I was Is that pretty normal?
Flynn Huseby:You mind me interrupting there? Like, is that pretty normal for the world to just greatly invite and accept these things? You go into public school, you're going to these clubs and stuff it was, it was normal.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, it was somewhat normal, I mean I'm sure there are a lot of groups that would not do that, but those groups did you know that was in at Atlanta, which is considered part of the Bible Belt. But I have to say Atlanta is very, very urban in the sense of you know, it's almost like a northern city. I mean, there are definitely southern parts of Atlanta, it has its definitely southern side, but it's really not like a typical southern city, other southern cities, I would say, because a lot of people go to Atlanta from different places.
Marcia Montenegro:So there's a lot of people from all over there. But I don't know if that's the reason. I think it's just because it's a really big city attracts a lot of different people and then different things are offered where you can learn things, and so all of these classes you know, like in astrology and other things were, were there. The Tibetan Buddhist group was there. All kinds of stuff like that was was going on there.
Flynn Huseby:Wow.
Marcia Montenegro:And so you know. So I think that the fact that it was like that is a very urban atmosphere. You have a lot of people interested in astrology, you know what's, you know? In fact, I did something called there was a group of churches that sponsored lunches, for these were for senior citizens and they would have different topics where they would invite speakers to speak. So it could be anything. It could be someone talking about a book or someone talking about you know food, or something like that. Well, they invited me to come speak on astrology, and this was sponsored by churches. This program, I think it was called Lunch and Learn or something like that.
Marcia Montenegro:And I was able to go speak twice to this group of senior citizens about astrology.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, um to this group of senior citizens about astrology.
Kyle Peart:Yeah, I think.
Flynn Huseby:I think that's why we want to have this conversation because through your testimony, we're seeing this stuff involved everywhere and a lot of people and that's the reason why we're doing this series is a lot of people hear the occult, which we're going to define terms here shortly. But, like, as you're talking about your past and your background, I mean this stuff is plugged in everywhere and, um, it really is infiltrating the church and has been for a while. This is not like a uh, you know, last couple of years thing. This is how long are we, how long were you doing this?
Marcia Montenegro:Well see, this is. This time period was in the 1980s.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah.
Marcia Montenegro:So you know, you can imagine if it was like that in the 1980s. And I know now that, starting with the millennials and then especially Gen Z, there's a very high interest in witchcraft, in astrology, and it's much more accessible now because of the Internet. And it's much more accessible now because of the Internet. So now even more, there's even more information out there and people can more easily get into it. You know, generation the millennials were pretty unchurched. Generation Z is really unchurched and so you know there's a lot of interest in these kind of things. It's very, a very high interest. You know. I mean it's just everywhere. You know, when I pick up my phone in the morning and and and look at it, the first thing I see is a horoscope thing you know.
Marcia Montenegro:So yeah, it's definitely out there. So yeah, so this this time period was was the 1980s into the 1990, um, and I won't give all the details of my testimony. It is on my website but it would take a while I can. I can kind of shorten it if you'd like me to yeah, I, I have your website up here.
Flynn Huseby:Why don't you just uh, tell us what brought you to the lord? How did you know what? What stuck out to you looking at astrology and occultism, like what stuck out to you and brought you to christ well, um, actually, what happened was that?
Marcia Montenegro:um, not well, what happened was that I started feeling, um, I got the idea in my head to go to a church. Well, I didn't have the idea in my head. I actually the word is compulsion. I felt a compulsion to go to a church. Well, I didn't have the idea in my head. I actually the word is compulsion. I felt a compulsion to go to a church and I really I didn't want to go to a church at all. I had no interest in it.
Marcia Montenegro:I had gone to church when I was younger and been exposed to christianity, and I had rejected it by the time I was about 15, even though I was going to church. I had pretty much rejected it for various reasons. I and I definitely was not a Christian, but I was going to church and so I had no interest in Christianity. I thought it was very narrow minded and judgmental and, um, that was pretty much my view of Christianity and so I did not want to go to a church. But this compulsion started in the spring. It went on all summer. I went to an astrological conference in Oregon. I came back to Atlanta and it was still there. So I thought you know, maybe this is something left over from my previous, a previous Christian life, you know, because I felt I had lived very many Christian lives, okay, so I thought this is probably a leftover from one of those lives. So I guess I need to go to a church to kind of figure out what's going on.
Flynn Huseby:Interesting.
Marcia Montenegro:That's how I talk myself into going to a church, which I think is really funny now. So I yeah, I went into this large church and I sat in the back and my plan was to leave after about 20 minutes. That was my plan.
Flynn Huseby:In and out.
Marcia Montenegro:In and out. Yeah, I'm going to go in. I'll stay for 20 minutes just to kind of be polite, but I'll sit in the back so that I can leave quietly. Nobody will notice and I'll just see you know if nothing happens. Well, fine, you know, I tried, you know.
Marcia Montenegro:So I go into the church and I do sit towards the back on the end of the. You know the pew there and they play music and everyone stands up and they have a procession from the back of the church. It's an Episcopal church and as this procession is coming down the aisle, it's led by a young boy carrying a cross and as he walks by me, I felt this overwhelming. I call it a waterfall of love falling on me. It was just very powerful and I knew it was from a personal God, but I did not believe in a personal God. Now, this just goes to show that you don't have to believe in something to have it happen to you, because you know it wasn't like I was seeking God or wondering who God was. I mean, I thought I understood who god was. God was a force, god was an energy we all came from and we all go back to that's who god was yeah and jesus was an enlightened spiritual master like buddha.
Marcia Montenegro:Okay, so those were my views of god and jesus, pretty much. And but this was a personal God telling me he loved me. I didn't hear a voice, it just was. I knew I could feel his love and it was very powerful. I mean, I started crying but I didn't understand what was happening and so I just stayed for the whole service. I ended up staying for the whole service and then I decided to go back the next sunday. So I did, and I kept going. Um, I really, you know, I, I don't know that I I did not understand at all what was happening. I really didn't, and I was just sort of going there just to kind of explore, I guess, um, just to see what it was like or something. I'm not really sure what. What kept me going, but, um, I, I had people who found out I was an astrologer who wanted my business card. So then I decided that I could get more clients oh, interesting, I thought well, you know, I might get some clients here.
Marcia Montenegro:You know that was another reason to keep going. I made a couple of friends and I was actually in a group of people who were going to be confirmed at Easter.
Flynn Huseby:OK.
Marcia Montenegro:And I was. I told them I said, well, I'm not going to be confirmed. I said I'm not, I'm not becoming a Christian or anything. And they were like, well, that's okay, you know, you can stay in the group. So it was a very interesting group, but I won't go into that. So it was interesting. The church was very, very open-minded and very progressive, so that's why I was comfortable there. And, um, so I'm there in this church. I go on labor day weekend. That's when I went and felt that waterfall of love. Now it's getting into october and, um, I start getting this impression from God that he doesn't like astrology.
Kyle Peart:But I don't.
Marcia Montenegro:I don't know why. I can't figure out. I kind of had a vague idea that the Bible said something about it, but I still don't understand why this God would want me to know. He didn't like astrology, so I just kind of brushed it off, but it wouldn't go away. And then it became this impression that he wanted me to give it up. And that happened um, right before um or shortly before Thanksgiving, and so I didn't know what to do. I was like I can't give it up.
Marcia Montenegro:I'm an astrologer, I have clients, I write for magazines. I was like I can't give it up. I'm an astrologer, I have clients, I write for magazines, I teach. You know, I also had, I should say, I had, a part-time job, and in that job I was asked by one of my clients, who was also one of my astrology students, to give him information on the employees based on their birth dates, and that's why I was there. That's why and nobody knew that, though I don't even think his secretary knew it, only he and I knew that's why I was there. I had a job title that was very generic, that didn't specify what I did.
Flynn Huseby:Okay.
Marcia Montenegro:And so people just they didn't really wonder. I guess they just thought he had me there for certain things and that nobody really was interested. But that's why I was there and so I was in that office part time. And so what happened was is that it was so strong that I had to give astrology up. After I went, I saw the rector of the parish and told him what was happening, and he opened the bible and started reading from the old testament, and he was reading passages about divination and he told me he said you know, they used to cut open animals and look at the liver to read it, which is true, this is true. And I thought, well, why is he telling me that? You know, like I don't understand, why is he telling me that? But it kind of hit me that this was confirmation that God wanted me to give it up. So that's, I decide. That was the night before Thanksgiving. I decided to give astrology up.
Marcia Montenegro:And the next day I was having Thanksgiving with my. My chiropractor, who was a witch, had a whole group of witches over to her house for Thanksgiving and had invited me, and so I went and it was very strange because I told her I'm not talking about astrology, so don't ask me anything. Now she had given my business card to a lot of her clients. I had a lot of clients because of her, but I was telling her. I didn't tell her I'd given it up. But I said you know, I'm not going to talk about it, I'm taking a break from it. And she's like oh OK, you know, I had some very strange experiences there. I won't go into, but um, if you have me on again, maybe I can go into the full story, and so, um.
Marcia Montenegro:So then I just I gave it up and then I had to tell my clients I wasn't doing it and they said why? And I said I don't know, but somehow it's separating me from God. And they said why? And I said I don't know, but somehow it's separating me from God. And they said how? And I said I don't know. I was really in spiritual limbo, I did not know what was going on.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, your worldview was being challenged and you were being pulled to stop what you loved your life.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, I wasn't a Christian, but now I'm not doing astrology either. So what am I? What do I believe? I was just in limbo.
Marcia Montenegro:And so I decided that I would start reading the Bible because I thought, since I was going to church and I wasn't doing astrology, I might as well read the Bible. That was kind of my rationale, I think. So I started with Matthew, and I started with chapter one, verse one, and I started reading a little bit every night and then, right before Christmas, I was in chapter eight and I was reading the account of Jesus on the boat with storm and how he rebukes to see in the wind, and I was reading that over and over again and as I was reading it, god just opened my eyes and I saw who jesus was. I mean, it's just, it was as clear as day I went. I went completely from not knowing who christ really was from darkness to light in like one second. I mean it was a it was amazing.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, this was. I realized I had been separated from God. I realized that I had been going against God my whole life and that I realized that I needed Christ. That I need. You know, I don't think I could articulate it, I wasn't using Christian lingo. I didn't think in my head I need a reconciliation with God or I'm lost. I need to be saved. None of that was in my head. I just knew that I needed Christ. I needed to be right with God. That was probably the best way I understood it. So I just gave myself over to Christ and I knew right away I was a new person.
Flynn Huseby:Wow.
Marcia Montenegro:So it happened very fast. And then my life was really really strange because, you know, I eventually had to get rid of my. I got rid of my books. I had to. Well, prior to that, I had to tell the astrological society I wasn't teaching my class, which I was supposed to teach in January. I had to find another teacher. All kinds of things changed At my job now my boss had hired me to do astrology. Now, at the time this happened, when I trusted Christ, he was away on a on a like a six week absence of leave, so I couldn't tell him until he came back. And so I told him he was very nice, he kept me there and just gave me busy work. You know, he's just a nice guy, so he kept me there for a while. A nice guy, so he kept me there for a while. Um, and I was, you know, trying to kind of. My life was so different. Of course, I lost all, pretty much all my friends, I just lost them because I didn't have anything in common with them anymore.
Marcia Montenegro:there was a couple of them who kept in touch with me, but I pretty much lost all my friends and um I in that office, um, four months later, a guy I knew in that office, who I knew was a Christian, came into my office and I had actually gone to him in January and told him I had become a Christian, but he didn't really say anything that I remember. So he came into my office in April and I said you know, it's really weird to me that a few months ago I was an astrologer and now I'm a Christian. And I said you know, I didn't even want to be a Christian. Now I'm a Christian. And he said well, maybe somebody was praying for you.
Flynn Huseby:And.
Marcia Montenegro:I said, oh, I don't know anybody who would pray for me. And then I saw him. You know, I saw his face and I said wait a minute, were you praying for me? And he said well, my young adult fellowship group at my church we were praying for you all last year.
Flynn Huseby:Wow.
Marcia Montenegro:And so he told me every other Tuesday night when they met they prayed for me. So there you go, you know. That just shows that God sometimes wants us to pray for people. No matter, I'm sure that looking at me in the office there he didn't see any change, you know. And yet they were faithfully praying for me.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, yeah, and that's I mean, that's something that Flynn and I we talk a lot about on here. I mean it's, it's as simple as that. I mean, god is faithful to minister and reach every person you were talking about. You weren't even looking for God. Well, scriptures say that none seek God, but God, in his rich mercy, reaches out to everyone, and it's really the response that we go.
Flynn Huseby:Well, I'm going to think about this. That's where it talks about the conviction of the Holy Spirit. You were, like, I don't even want to be a Christian, but I'm at this church, but yet in my previous lives I was a Christian. So I wonder if your previous Christian life was judgmental the way you thought Christians were in your current life. You know, there's like all those thoughts that you're wrestling with, but this is reality. Like every listener is thinking about this, whether Christian or not. Like we have these convictions in us, that that that are thoughts, they're prods that draw us back back to the truth and we can suppress them in our unrighteousness and say, you know, I don't want this, but praise God. You know you, yeah, the church was being faithful and praying for you and trusting God to minister to you. And Flynn, do you have anything that you want to touch on that before we get into the deep terms?
Kyle Peart:No, I mean, what comes to mind for me, marsha, as you're talking, is when you know the disciples were, or the Christians were, praying for Peter when he was in prison. And it's just funny because I'm thinking about it from that person that you worked with perspective, praying for you for a whole year and probably watching nothing happening for a while, and then finally you walk into his office or walk and talk to him in January and say, hey, I'm a Christian now. That had to be so encouraging for him too, because I think you know Peter was put in prison and then everybody was praying for him. And then he gets released and then he goes back and you know the, the, the person who went and answered the door I forget if it was one of the servants or if it was one of the believers and then they run back and tell the disciples they're like, no, no, no, peter's in jail, we're still praying for him. He can't be at the door. You know so sometimes even as believers, how god blessed you, but he also blessed the person praying. What a great testimony of just god's faithfulness all the way around.
Kyle Peart:And I think for list for people watching. We all have family members or friends or somebody that we know. That's probably like we kind of check it out as like a lost cause. Like boy, I've been praying for them for years. Don't stop praying, don't stop trusting the Lord. You know, obviously their relationship with him is between them and him, and if they choose to reject him, they choose to reject him. But keep praying, don't give up on those things. So what a great testimony, marcia. Thank you for sharing that. That's just what a testimony to God's faithfulness.
Marcia Montenegro:It really is, yeah, and that nobody's beyond God's reach Nobody.
Kyle Peart:No.
Marcia Montenegro:So, no matter what, how hard a case that, I'm sure, I'm sure I look like a really hard nut to crack, I was, I was very, very hardened, but you know that doesn't matter to God. So if you feel like to pray for somebody, just just you know, keep praying. You know, god, I can be working behind the scenes and you may not be seeing what's going on, just like with me.
Kyle Peart:And you may not. You may never see it this side of heaven.
Marcia Montenegro:So you may and you may not see, yeah, but if I think, if you really want, want you really care for that person or you feel led to pray for that person, you know, just just pray. God wants you to pray.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, and.
Flynn Huseby:I think the encouraging thing that I'm learning as I get older in the Lord is pray right. Then you know, a lot of times when people are asking, hey, you know I'm going to, usually we say, hey, is there anything I can pray for? And they say, yeah, could you pray for this? And then you're like, all right, I'll put that on my list. I mean there are some legitimate people. There's a guy in my Bible study, the men's study, that I mean. That guy writes down every single thing you tell him. I love it.
Flynn Huseby:But, most of us in Western Christianity go I'll pray for this, but then forget it later and don't ever do it. So pray right then and there and say, hey, can I pray for you now? Or you know, thinking about someone. Pray for him right then, I think, um, trusting the God of today, now, you know, and seeking him, so cool. Um, let's get into the terms, Cause I think, uh, the beginning of this series, it'd be really good to really define some of the things that we're throwing around. There's a lot of newer people, new believers, or maybe people that are involved in this and don't even know what they're messing with. There's people that absolutely know what they're talking about, like the way you did, and so maybe they're watching this right now, saying, well, are these Christians, these dirty, rotten Christians, going to misconstrue my terms? Let's just lay it all on the table.
Flynn Huseby:When I was younger in the Lord, I was deeply confused. Flynn and my wife could tell you they probably chuckled a little bit, but I remember hearing the word occult, because Flynn was telling me about Dave Hunt's book and I was thinking, okay, wait, are you saying a cult like a? And then new word, C-U-L-T like a cult. You know, like all of the you know, Mormonism and Scientology and all these things like cults. And they were like no, oh, cults O-C-C-U-L-T. And I'm like, wait, I have no idea what you're talking about. I knew what you know familiar spirits were just from growing up. You learn about ghosts and cartoons and all these things. But define occultism for us what is the occult? And then we're going to get into kind of the sub tiers from there.
Marcia Montenegro:Okay, so I define the occult as a set of practices that are listed in Deuteronomy 18, 10 through 11. And these practices are aligned with different belief systems, so you can find occult practices in all kinds of belief systems. You know even belief systems that you might not expect to find them. You can find them so, and those practices are divided up in three categories divination, spirit, contact and sorcery. So then then I usually talk about each one, so I don't know if you want me to go ahead and do that. No, yeah.
Flynn Huseby:So when we're talking about using divination, I mean I think it would be good for clarity for everything. Yeah, let's break it down.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, so divination is probably the most common one or one of the most common ones practices, and it's usually it's often called fortune telling. I think some of the more modern Bible translations may even use the word fortune telling, and so what that is is divination is reading a hidden meaning into something that's natural or something in creation, or reading a hidden meaning into an image or a number or creation like a planet, or it's getting information via supernatural means, like a psychic. So divination comes down to getting information, but you're not getting the information through the natural methods, the normal way. We get information through our five senses. Um, so, for example, astrology is divination, palm reading is divination, tarot cards are divination. Tarot cards are divination. Those are all forms of divination and very common ones, and it can seem and sometimes it can seem even like kind of a game.
Marcia Montenegro:For example, I remember I used to go to baby showers Before I was a Christian. I would go to these baby showers and they would play this game where they have the pregnant woman lie down or I think she can be sitting too, but they hold. It's better for her to lie down. Then they hold a like a pencil tied to a string over her belly and then they wait for the pencil to move. So if it moves this one way it's a boy and if it moves into another way it's a girl. So you guys probably don't have that experience, I don't know. But and hopefully they don't do that at Christian baby showers I don't know. I've been to a few Christian baby showers. I haven't seen it. So that's good, but-.
Kyle Peart:I think a lot of people marcia just and we're going to be talking about this. This is part of why we talk about it, with the desensitization that people just don't even realize what they're doing, that it's not just a game. We'll talk about that when we're talking about your book. But one one that I'm reminded of as a teacher, I remember first starting with first and second grade and kids were making fortune tellers, those little paper things that you could go back and forth with. They love folding them, and then you pick a number, they count it one, two, three, four and then you open it up and do it.
Marcia Montenegro:Oh yeah, I did that too when I was younger.
Kyle Peart:Yeah, and I remember doing those and just thinking it's fun, and then they would have something about the future You're going to marry somebody or something's going to happen. And so, as a Christian, I went to a Christian school and started teaching and these kids were building these things. And that's the first time I thought about it in years and I thought wait, that's not right. So we changed it. I told them they could make one, but it couldn't be for telling the future. It could just be something like you could share a Bible verse, you could share a joke, because it's just a paper building thing. And we just started calling them thingamabobs instead of fortune tellers, because I'm like we don't need to be playing a game to foretell the future. I've seen on TV the same thing the pencil thing with the string. That's something that I've seen several times on shows where kids are fooling around and they'll just have a yes or no on a piece of paper.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, just to ask a question.
Kyle Peart:It doesn't have to be pregnant, it's not something we need to fool around with. It's not a game. So for those that are watching, don't try it. It's not something we need to. So, anyway, I don't want to hijack that, but I think the divination stuff, it's just it's so important to talk about. So thank you for for defining that term.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, yeah. And I wanted to say something else about that. Yeah, you can, you can. I've heard people use it over a map and they'll say I move, or something like that Where's a good place for me to live? I mean, you can do all kinds of things to get either a yes or no answer, or to get it to move in a certain direction for some reason.
Marcia Montenegro:And what I tell, when I've talked to a lot of youth groups about the occult, and what I tell them is think about what you're doing. You're asking, you're holding this object and you're asking a question. So I'll say do you think the pencil knows anything? Do you think the pencil actually knows anything? And they'll say well, no, because it's just a pencil, right, right. So so why do you think so?
Marcia Montenegro:What do you think is happening to supposedly give you an answer? What it is is that you're believing there's some kind of supernatural power that's moving it in a certain way to give you an answer. And I said that's the occult. That's where you've crossed the line, because the pencil doesn't know anything. But you are, you are, you are waiting for some kind of power you know to steer it, a certain direction kind of power you know, to steer it a certain direction. And that's where you know, that's that's what I say in order to get them to recognize, you know, to think about it, to think it through, so that they don't just do it without thinking, because if you really think it through, then you realize oh, wait, a minute. I must be, I must be believing in some kind of force that's moving it to give me an answer and then right away you have to say wait is that okay for me to believe in that?
Marcia Montenegro:Because it's a, it's pagan. This is not biblical.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, and I think this is this is really crucial right here for us to really explain this Cause. We talked to our kids. I got five girls and my wife and I really break down these things because you can see I mean we're going to get into the culture later in this conversation and how the occult is affecting the culture but when you're talking to kids and you talk about force and all these individual things that are definitely in occultic practices, they resonate with people that know exactly what they're doing. But for people in that are definitely in occultic practices, they resonate with people that know exactly what they're doing. But for people in the church that aren't familiar, but you see, those things stick out.
Flynn Huseby:You know, how do you, how do we really like answer those questions when it comes to? Well, I'm seeking the Lord in this moment and doing these things because they're trying to tie in. Well, God has power, God has a strength, and so I'm Christian-easing these kinds of things, if you know what I mean. So what is your answer to that when people are really dancing with some blurry lines here, trying to bring in Jesus?
Marcia Montenegro:Yes, yes, that does happen and I have answered questions like that before. Well, what I say is, if you are believing in some kind of force or energy using an object or giving you information like that, it can't be from God, because God condemns it and God is not going to answer you with a method that he condemns. He has condemned those things. Divination is. If you look, go to like the Bible Gateway and put divination in the search box and see how many Bible verses come up under divination, there will be quite a lot of passages. Now, some Bible versions might use a different word, but I think most of the like I knew American Standard and ESV, I think, and probably NIV, used divination.
Marcia Montenegro:You know, I haven't really checked out to see what other well fortune telling is used by some Bibles, and so if you look it up, you'll see that the idea that you can get answers, this you're trying to get an answer supernaturally, and nowhere does the Bible give us an example of that as a way to get answers from God, except through prayer. You know, pray to God, but we don't look for them in creation, we don't look for them in a hidden meaning, like we don't try to think that the planet Venus represents something and the planet Jupiter represents something, and so if I see them a certain way in my birth chart, then that means you know X, y or Z, because then you're giving a meaning to something where there is no meaning. You know, in other words, venus is a planet with certain physical properties, but it doesn't have a meaning right now. It doesn't mean anything, it doesn't mean um. You know it's not the planet of relationships, which it is in astrology, and jupiter's the planet of expansion and saturn's the planet of limitations, etc. You know they all have meanings in astrology.
Marcia Montenegro:That's from. You know divination and numbers all have meaning. You know, um, or the lines on your hand, but those are all things that if you just look at them, you don't. There's no meaning there.
Marcia Montenegro:You know the lines on your hand are just lines on your hand yeah and so when you start, to try to see a meaning there, or if you think an object can give you an answer, then you're delving into the supernatural. And that's the occult, because God does not encourage us to God, in fact forbids us trying to harness or channel supernatural energy or channel supernatural energy.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, well said, and that's what divination always has to do with this hidden knowledge and supernatural information. Because this was how the people who had turned away from God and was worshiping false gods, this was how they got information from their gods. Because, if you look at the context of Deuteronomy 18, god is giving directions to Moses and Moses is, you know, the words from God are coming, you know, to the people who are going into these pagan lands where God is leading them and God is saying have nothing to do with their practices. And he lists a whole bunch of them there in Deuteronomy 18, 10 and 11. And he starts off with you know, don't, don't sack, don't put your child in the in the fire. Okay, this was also, this was a sacrifice, but also a form of divination. And then, uh, he lists things and, depending on the translation that you're you're using, you know it'll have divination. You'll have um contacting the dead, casting spells, um, you know, contacting spirit, spiritism or contacting spirits, um, so it lists all of uh, looking um for omens, uh, so it'll list a whole bunch of things there. And these are all things that have to do with looking for answers outside of God and outside of the Bible, outside of his revealed word. And so once you do that and you're trying to get these answers, that's the occult. So now you've crossed the line and you're practicing something or trying to get an answer in a method that God has completely forbidden, and he calls these abomination because these practices actually, you know, god says that God doesn't really get sick, but he says they make him sick. You know he says that in order for us to understand his view of these things and his view.
Marcia Montenegro:Things are important to him. So they. But the thing is, in our culture they can appear so harmless and they can appear like games or like something fun, you know, like the baby shower game and things like that, and it can just look like the horoscope columns are. You know what used to always be in magazines, but now of course, it's online and you know on your phone and you can go online and probably put your birth date somewhere and maybe for a few dollars, somebody will supposedly tell you about yourself.
Marcia Montenegro:So it's very accessible now and because the culture is so desensitized to it and really this desensitization has happened very quickly from the time I became a christian, I have watched it in the culture just accelerate unbelievably. Harry pot Potter was one of the things that helped. It was like an accelerant. It was already out there in the culture, but that just really opened doors. You know, after Harry Potter started getting popular, four publishers said they were going to start publishing books with similar themes and after that it just became an habit and now it's actually hard to avoid this stuff in children's books or in children's movies, whatever.
Marcia Montenegro:It's really hard to avoid video games, of course.
Kyle Peart:As a teacher, I'll tell you. Another one that comes up quite a bit for me with second to fourth graders is Magic Treehouse books. And so, yeah, mary Pope Osborne, who wrote those, actually the lady who is in the books, who is the librarian, her name is Morgan Le Fay, which is a well-known, well-known witch throughout history, right, right, which is a well-known, well-known witch throughout history, right, right. And so when we started, I started researching them down when I taught at tucson, and realizing they were actually teaching the kids very subtly through a series of the books because there's so many of them how to practice divination. And so I took it to my boss and underlined everything.
Kyle Peart:And that's where the line for me is when you start teaching a kid, I mean one of the lines. Once you start teaching a kid how to practice these things, I mean that's really a line for me is when you start teaching a kid, I mean one of the lines. Once you start teaching a kid how to practice these things, I mean that's really a line you cannot cross. And so I explained that to my boss. It was at a Christian school and they just could care less.
Marcia Montenegro:So they just never came into my room. That didn't bother them, really no.
Kyle Peart:And at the school I'm at now it's the same thing. So my kids know I've taught them fourth and fifth grade, so we call it the truth radar. So when they come across any of that stuff they bring it to me and it ends up in the garbage. So you know, it's stuff like Magic Treehouse. They don't come into our room. But you know, often, like you said, it just seems innocent and fun. And when you read the books they're all written Harry Potter. You know that was a phenomenon, still is. It's still capturing people's attentions.
Kyle Peart:So yeah for sure, and that's the culture we live in. And so, kyle, when you said occult and culture, I'm like that's really for the Christian, that's really what it is, because we're so influenced by the culture we that's really what it is. Because we're so influenced by the culture we have to be careful because it is a very occultic culture, for sure.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah it's very pagan and and, like you said, these things look fun and and so, I think, a lot of Christians. The reason that they don't get concerned is that they think the occult is sort of fantasy. They think it's like not really real and unfortunately, a lot of these stories mix fantasy with the occult. Now, I don't have a problem with fantasy. The use of the imagination is normal. I think god gave us, you know, the ability to imagine things, and you can use it in a creative way. Um, you know writing stories, drawing pictures, you know designing something, interior decoration or whatever you know. That's normal and that's fine. But a lot of fantasy elements are mixed in with the occult and you have things like, you know, doctor Strange, which I watched.
Marcia Montenegro:I watched one or two of those movies and I did a lot of Facebook posts on that because there was so much occultism in it but it's almost. It's almost portrayed as this kind of fantasy story, but it actually has real occult concepts in it, and so does Harry Potter, which is portrayed as a fantasy, but they're actual, real occult principles. In the books, which I lay out in great detail on my website, I have an article on every book and every movie I read every book. I took notes. I watched every movie. I took notes. This consumed a big part of my life. Unfortunately, it took up a whole part of my life. Unfortunately, it took up a whole part of my life for several years doing this because they were so popular and, of course, I was being asked about them. I felt especially by teenagers were asking me. I thought you know, I have to address this issue.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah Well, we appreciate you putting in the time and effort into that, because a lot of people are unwilling to address those things. And seminary professors are wearing Spider-Man t-shirts and, you know, Doctor Strange t-shirts in their in their teachings and you know it's just unfortunate that it's dismissed so quickly. But that's the desensitization that you're talking about, that it's dismissed so quickly, but that's the desensitization that you're talking about.
Kyle Peart:It's a postmodern world trying to remove all of these fantastical things and say, well, it's just an imagination, it's just fun things, but this is I'll give you an example, kyle, sorry to interrupt, but just on this topic and I'll let you continue. I apologize, but just on the Dr Strange thing, just so people understand you. I apologize, but just on the Dr Strange thing, just so people understand. One example I can give you too is and Kyle knows this is when the new Dr Strange movie came out I forget what it was called. We ended up seeing it and it was so bad, it was so dark and I just I knew some of my students were going to go see it because the trailer for it did not make it look that dark and it was just demonic. It was absolutely demonic whole thing.
Kyle Peart:So I put up, I put together an email and emailed my parents just letting them know hey, here are like three things that you need to know about it and it's and I would not recommend it. And I was very clear but not like rude about it, just very clear that this is not a movie to see. And within probably maybe a few hours or maybe a half a day, my boss, who is also now the head pastor at the church that's connected to my school, but he just became their head pastor. But my boss emailed me and said you know what? This isn't our role to tell parents what they can and can't see, and so you really shouldn't be doing this, letting parents know about this situation.
Kyle Peart:And then, about an hour or two later, another parent emailed me that I knew really well and she was thank you for sending this because we were going to go see the movie and I really appreciate it because I would have never wanted my boys to see that, and so she was super appreciative. But I just find it interesting that here you have the average parent thinking I could care less. That it's me. But you know, the average parent is like thank you for the discernment. And then the pastor says and the administrator of a Christian school says you know that you shouldn't be doing this, and that's just to me that's sad, it's a testimony.
Marcia Montenegro:Well, what you were doing and what I say I do is I don't tell people what to do, but I give them the information.
Marcia Montenegro:Yes, so I'm like here's the information about this book or this movie. And if it's especially to parents, if it's something for younger children, then I'm writing it for parents more than for the child. So you know, here's the information. I myself and I give my opinion I do not recommend it. You know, know, this is my view of it. Um, here's the information. Here's why I don't recommend it. Now, then they have to decide as a parent whether or not. And that's kind of what you did.
Marcia Montenegro:You said I don't recommend this, I this is why and here's why, here's what the bible says yes, so you know I, because sometimes I'm accused of uh, it's like marcia, you know you can't tell people what to do and I'm like, I know I don't have any authority over. Who do I have authority over to tell them what to do? I am, I'm telling you why I don't recommend something and I'm giving you, I'm trying to give you, biblical reasons for it. Another movie that is very, very big, that I actually have an article on my website on it is Frozen 2. Oh, yeah.
Marcia Montenegro:The second Frozen movie. I could not believe the occultism in there and actually I found a review of it by a Wiccan who was writing about all the Wiccan symbolism in it. Who was writing about all the Wiccan symbolism and I quoted her in my article because I saw it too, because it's clearly they were doing the five points of the pentagram in the movie and the heroine becomes the fifth point, the goddess or the spirit, she becomes the fifth point. So you know this was, this was really the message, and it had a lot of occult elements in it. And there's a lot of movies like that.
Marcia Montenegro:So in fact, now talking now makes me want to go back to my Facebook post on Dr Strange and put it, make it an article on my website. And the reason I even came up with it is that one of my friends from seminary teaches at a Christian school and she hears all this talk from the kids and I think it's around it's around the fourth and maybe fifth grades, I think, if I remember correctly and she hears all this talk. So she asked me to talk to the class about Dr Strange and Wanda Vision and then I had to go online and look at some episodes of why I didn't even know what wanda vision was oh yeah, but I know now now they apparently have a new show that's based on that.
Marcia Montenegro:So I went and looked at episodes and then I wrote up for dr strange. I made a list of all the occult elements I saw and I sent them.
Kyle Peart:Oh, it was awful, absolutely awful so.
Marcia Montenegro:I, you know, and I talked to the kids. I talked to them and answered their questions and everything. So I'm really glad she did that. So any of you teachers out there, if you can, if you want me to talk by Zoom or some other platform like this to your class, I can do it. But I'm going to, I think I'm going to put that on my website. So that's, that's we kind of I don't know. I guess we just start talking about things in the culture, but I never define spirit contact or sorcery.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, I definitely want to get into familiar spirits. Connecting, you know, necromancy with what we're seeing today, because I mean, those are the things. That's kind of where I was going with earlier is, you know, a lot of people do think this stuff is fake and it's just fantastical. But this has been pagan religion since the beginning, you know, and that's the lie from Satan is you can be as God and so you can have these connections. So we really want people to be encouraged to to to spot these things out. I mean, all the way back to star Wars we had a person comment on here. It's all about entertainment. Star Wars movies did a lot of harm. I mean, we've done a whole video, Flynn and I, on star Wars and so, yeah, connect the dots for us, help us understand the rest. Yeah, Connecting.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, yeah, cause star Wars has a lot of Eastern. It's a combination of eastern religions and sorcery and I um, I have some articles on on star wars on my website, but I've been talking about star wars to youth groups for a long time, so you know, a lot of times they'll raise their hand and say, are you saying I can't see star wars? And I'm like, no, I'm not telling you not to see. In fact, they probably have already seen it.
Flynn Huseby:Don't take my fun away, marcia yeah.
Marcia Montenegro:I know I'm on another program where they call me the party keeper, we've been called similar.
Marcia Montenegro:I tell them I say what I want to do is teach you or show you how to be discerning. I want you to be able to see, when it's appropriate, that there are these other ideas that are being pushed in the movie. And so I said I'm giving Star Wars as an example to help you see that and understand it. So yeah, so spirit contact is kind of self-explanatory Contacting a spirit, whether you think it's a dead person or an alien or you know some kind of spiritual master, which is very common in the New Age. So contacting the dead is probably what we hear about most in our culture. You have mediums who claim to contact the dead. I've had Christians email me who were going through a really hard time. Maybe they lost their husband and they were so desperate just to hear from their husband one more time they actually would go to a medium, or maybe a friend talked them into it.
Kyle Peart:Yeah.
Marcia Montenegro:Go to a medium. And you know, the thing is, these mediums just like me, as an astrologer, and everybody in the New Age and everybody who practices the occult has a spirit guide, at least one spirit guide and these spirit guides are fallen angels, which I did not explain. I gave my testimony and talked about my spirit guide, but then I didn't say that he was a fallen angel. So, um, they can disguise themselves as the dead and they have enough information probably about the dead person to pass on something that makes it sound like the medium is really hearing from the dead person, and so there are ways that can make it seem real and very believable. And that's one of the problems with this is that it's very deceptive.
Marcia Montenegro:And, yes, there is a real thing going on in the occult, not in the sense that people in the occult claim, for example, cat will cast spells, but they don't really have any power to do anything with with it. They are. They don't have that kind of power. Um, it works in different ways, but they don't actually have a power. So we don't need to be afraid of, you know, somebody casting a spell, but the thing is there is a demonic power behind it, you know. So what I always say is witches don't have the power, the power is using them when they're casting a spell.
Marcia Montenegro:They're being used by the power and when an astrologer is doing an astrology chart and a psychic is doing a psychic reading, they are allowing themselves to be used by Satan. Now, they don't see it that way. I mean, most of these people don't believe in Satan. I didn't believe in Satan either. So you know, you see it as your spirit guide is helping you or something, or you have a special power that you can do that, and so they don't really believe it's evil, and so they don't really believe it's evil. But it is. It's very evil and it's very, very dark. This area is actually incredibly, incredibly dark and it just it sucks some people in and it's like this I call it. It's true for the new age too. It's like opening a door and there's a long hallway and there's a door on each side of the hallway, and you go down the hall and you open another door and there's another hallway and there's more doors, and you can just go on forever. I mean it just it has.
Marcia Montenegro:It has these roots that just go down and down and down and it can get you interested in what seems to be very harmless, something very harmless. And some children are very vulnerable to this. They're interested, and just like I was. I had a dream when I was 11 that got me interested in the paranormal, and it never went away. So I think that, and I've heard this from other people too who got into the occult. So you know, I guess I'm emphasizing the seriousness of this that it's that it shouldn't be dismissed.
Flynn Huseby:Right.
Marcia Montenegro:And just because it's entertainment, that doesn't mean that it's okay.
Flynn Huseby:Well, and the stuff you're talking about right now. The reason why it it's not. We're not talking entertainment at this point, because now we're talking about things that are very personal, real trauma that has happened in our life, real people that have passed away. And, with the times coming up, I mean we live in arizona, in tucson. There's a huge festival I mean 200 000 people come every year. It's getting bigger every year De Los Muertos. I mean there's a huge parade that goes down the middle of our city and it's an interfaith connection.
Flynn Huseby:There's tons of different churches that are involved there and it's exactly what you're talking about, because people can resonate with I miss my loved one. And so when they say, talking to familiar spirits, you sound fantastical, right Like it sounds crazy. So it's not really not everyone here watching is talking about that, but I know a lot of people that even in their prayers pray to their loved ones. They say you know I miss you dad and and you know I love you, and you'll see a lot of Facebook posts and I can resonate with that about being about missing loved ones, but this is something the scriptures do talk about. So thank you for that clarification. It's it's necessary.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's really. Um, we cannot. We cannot communicate with our dead ones. They are not there. They're you know they are gone're they're you know they are gone. Whether they're with you, know christ or not, they are not reachable. So you are not going to be able to hear from your, your dead loved one. You just cannot do it and you will have to find. If you're a christian, you need to find comfort in the lord. You need to find comfort with other believers maybe who have experienced the same kind of loss. Find comfort in God's word, but don't try to find comfort in getting messages from your dead loved one, because whatever messages you get, they are not coming from that person.
Marcia Montenegro:You know they're going to come through through the medium, they will be coming from fallen angels. So you don't want those, you don't want to open yourself up to that. You know, I have a story about that where a woman told me she's a Christian woman and she had a. I don't know if it was a, I think it was a friend or a real close friend who was, I don't think, a Christian, and this friend's husband had died and she was in deep grief and she wanted to go to a medium to get a message from her husband. So the Christian woman wanted to support her.
Marcia Montenegro:I don't know if she tried to tell her it was wrong or not, I can't remember, but she felt she could go with her to support her, which was a mistake, because she went into the room with this woman and the medium was there. And the medium looked at the Christian woman and said well, I didn't expect this to happen, but one of your dead loved ones has shown up. And so there she was, getting a message from him and really it really like stunned her and shook her up, and I, you know, I told her, I said it's nice that you wanted to support your friend and and you know, or at least you know, comfort her or whatever you thought you were doing, but don't put yourself in a situation where you're going to get a message from a psychic or a medium. Just don't go there, don't do it.
Kyle Peart:Yeah.
Marcia Montenegro:Satan sees that, or the fallen angel sees that Satan can't be everywhere at the same time. Let's keep that in mind. Satan can only be one place at one time. He's a creature, so he doesn't know everything. But a fallen angel can see that and you immediately become a target. So you don't want to put yourself in that position. And I want to say something about sorcery, because sorcery sounds so exotic. You know, probably a lot of people are thinking well, you know sorcery, you know, is that really real? And and I don't really run into sorcery but sorcery is the use of harnessing supernatural power for some kind of purpose and there are lots of ways to do it, and one of the ways is healing. So one of the big things in our culture that's from the new age, that's gone mainstream, is energy healing. Energy healing is sorcery. It is. It is dangerous and unfortunately a lot of Christians have fallen into this yeah, they go, for the listeners could be Reiki, right.
Marcia Montenegro:Reiki, but it could be natural healer yeah, a natural healer, a holistic healer.
Marcia Montenegro:Most of these people are new age, or at least they're abiding by new age thinking and they are many of them are even if they're not doing direct energy healing on you. What they believe about the way they're doing healing is based on energy views and they are seeing your body not the way your body actually is physiologically, but they're seeing it as a bunch of energies and they're treating the energies in your body. So this is really a form of sorcery. I've been trying to say that for years and years and years and.
Marcia Montenegro:I feel like, even though I've been saying it for years, I've seen it increased in the church in the culture and in the church.
Marcia Montenegro:So you know it's really hard because people with chronic illnesses and pain, who you know, go to doctors and the doctors can't really help them or the medications don't work. They get really, you know, desperate and they hear about this healer and they'll go to the healer. And here's what I say you may even get better, but it is still wrong. Because you know there's a book somebody told me about I don't think I didn't get it, but I looked it up one time. I think it's called Healing at Any Cost and it's a. It's a Christian book on a warning against this kind of healing because, uh, god, if god wants you healed, he will heal you through the methods that are not occultic, you know right sure he will heal you.
Marcia Montenegro:Either heal you or he'll heal you through you know a normal way. Don't go to these people who call themselves natural and holistic healers. This is all. This is what new agers go to. I know this, having been in the new age. We went to naturopaths and natural healers and and all of that. These are not doctors, these people are not doctors. Yeah, so I just want to put a caution out there, because that would fall under the heading of sorcery out there, because that would fall under the heading of sorcery. So a lot of Christians might think sorcery, oh, that's somebody with a wand or you know, casting a spell or doing some kind of complicated ritual, which it could be. Those are all sorcery, but it can also be some kind of healer. So healing is very, very big in the occult in the New age it's a huge. Healing is a big thing because satan uses healing to lure people into those areas.
Kyle Peart:Well, I'm here marsh and marcia what I think an easy crossover. And this happened with yoga when it came to our country, right? So a lot of people didn't want to embrace eastern mysticism. But if you call yoga science, didn't want to embrace Eastern mysticism. But if you call yoga science, then it's okay If it's just a scientific exercise.
Kyle Peart:And the same with psychology, as long as you can call psychology science, as long as you can call evolution science, as long as you can call it scientific, well then you know, you've, well then we've just sanitized it and that's okay.
Kyle Peart:But the same thing with healing. You know, a lot of people are into health. I think a lot of Christian groups get caught up in some of these things, you know, for a variety of reasons, whether it's oils or other things, and it's all about the health of it. But, like you're saying, it's important for us to look at what's behind all of it. Look at what the foundation is, look at the origin of these things and if the origin is occultic which a lot of it Look at what the foundation is, look at the origin of these things. And if the origin is occultic which a lot of it is, in fact I would say most of it is when it's dealing with those kinds of areas, then we need to say because God said he's not going to give his glory to another, he's a jealous God, so he's not going to utilize an occultic method. God's not a pragmatist, and neither should we.
Marcia Montenegro:Right, he's not a pragmatist. It's a good way to put it?
Kyle Peart:No, yeah, and so God? The reason God doesn't want us to go through creation to gain our wisdom or even healing in that sense you know the occultic sense of it is because we need to go to the creator. Creation was cursed when sin came in, exactly. Our job isn't to go to creation, to creation was cursed when sin came in, exactly. Our job isn't isn't to go to creation to attain these things. And I had heard years ago listening to dave hunt, when because he's done it, you know, he did a really good job, I think, on seduction of christianity and occult invasion years ago, and that was really when things were really just starting to come out. But, um, one of the things he had said and I thought, how that, oh, that's interesting. But he had talked about Eve and he said you know, when Eve went to a fruit to attain wisdom.
Kyle Peart:That's really what the general definition of all of this is, whether you want to call it witchcraft or occultism is trying to go through a physical object to attain something spiritual. That's the basic battle plan that Satan's using, whether it's a dividing rod, whether it's a sorcerer's wand, whether it's through some so-called medicine, whether it's through some ritual or a repetition. I mean, that's why we're called not to do, you know, vain repetition in our prayers, and a lot of churches have gotten caught up in it, whether it's through labyrinths or other things. They use all of these ritualistic, physical things to try to attain some spiritual avenue, and that's that's. It's forbidden because you're not going to open a door to god, but you are going to open a door to the enemy. Even as believers, we can sadly do that.
Marcia Montenegro:So, yeah, for sure, we have to understand there's, you know, there is an enemy out there yeah, I noticed somebody in the chat said something about acupuncture and I've done Facebook posts on that.
Marcia Montenegro:Acupuncture is based on Taoism, which is an ancient Chinese religion, started around 800 BC and came from shamanism, which is shamanism. That's a whole other area, but it involves occult practices and spirit contact, and it's based on the belief in this energy, this life force called chi, that supposedly is in the universe and runs through your body through invisible channels called meridians, and so the energy gets. If it gets blocked, then it causes pain or illness, and it has to be unblocked. And so all these acupuncture points are based on where they thought it would be effective for healing or for stopping the pain. But it's not actually related to the biology of the body, because they did not allow autopsies in China, so they actually didn't know where all the organs were. They had to guess at it Wow, guess at how the body worked. And acupuncture so is acupuncture when, like they, you may have a pain in your shoulder and they might want to put the needle in your knee or something, because it doesn't correlate physiologically at all.
Marcia Montenegro:It's based on this map of the meridians and where how everything connects. And actually there isn't even a standard meridian map. There's apparently different ones. So depending on which one your acupuncturist uses, that's the one that's going to guide him or her to the acupuncture. And so what what's happened is they've done a lot of studies on this for years and years and years and they have never found conclusive evidence.
Marcia Montenegro:They can't find any physical basis on which acupuncture, you know, rests. In other words, there's no objective standard for acupuncture. And they only found that it relieved. I think in four cases it there was slight, slightly above average, that it would relieve, I think, certain kind of knee pain, nausea after dental surgery and two other things. But it was, it was very slight, and the and actually studies showed that sham acupuncture worked as well as acupuncture.
Marcia Montenegro:So sham acupuncture is where they either weren't putting the needle all the way in or they put it in a point that wasn't supposed to be the right. So it's basically they have not really been able to show it as a solid method, and if they did find a way that it worked, then it would no longer be acupuncture, because then it wouldn't be based on the chi and the meridians. It would be based on some kind of physical thing and it would be something else. So you know, we as Christians, because these things in the culture are so popular, just because something's popular. And here's another thing just because a Christian does, it doesn't make it okay either.
Marcia Montenegro:Because, I've gotten that before. Like well, my acupuncturist is a Christian or something. And there are Christian acupuncturists. I had one who was really mad at me because of my post on acupuncture. So you know it's like yeah, but just because he or she is a Christian, maybe he or she is not discerning. You are called to be discerning, you're responsible. Don't blame it on this person. They're deceived, so don't you be deceived too. So don't do something just because a Christian does it?
Flynn Huseby:Let me tee this up because I think this is the the best transition for um. The next point we answered a lot of the points of. You know, is this stuff fake? You know astrology and fortune telling, and I think we've we've pretty much nailed that down, that this stuff is real, that we're dealing with. But the power is not from the people themselves but from the demonic spirits.
Flynn Huseby:And so Haley, our only Facebook subscriber, she came on here. So I want to highlight this and I think this will point this out really well. She said I went to a chiropractor who went to church with me several years ago to help me with migraines. He was a holistic healer and used acupuncture on me without permission and it scarred me for life. Then she says he knew that I was staunchly against it, but he did it anyway. I had horrible demonic oppression as a result and started my journey into learning more about the dangers of holistic healing.
Flynn Huseby:Now you know the scriptures say I have here first john 4 1 beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. And then the next one Ephesians 5, 11,. It says take no part in unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. So what Haley went through is exactly what you're talking about. Is this stuff is in the church? How does the church go about to actually test these spirits, to observe and research these things the way that she is doing so?
Marcia Montenegro:Well, it's easy to look up acupuncture If you know it's from most people know it's from China, you know. All you have to do is go to an acupuncture site and it will tell you. You can Google what is acupuncture based on, or the spiritual beliefs of acupuncture, and you'll find all these websites that are very open about what it's based on. It's based on the chi flowing through the, the, the meridian channels, and they get blocked and and it's and then, and you have to have the yin and yang balance and you'll see all of the spiritual language from taoism. It's just right there. It's really easy to find. So anything, basically anything that you're not sure of, you can check out.
Marcia Montenegro:And I also would say this and this probably will not make me well, I know it won't make me popular, because I'm already not popular because of it um, is that anything called alternative healing is almost always based on spiritual belief systems. Um, it come, and that's why it's called alternative. It's because it's not the standard kind of way that we research and find a method of healing. It's based on a belief system, a spiritual belief system, like acupuncture. And so all of these alternatives either haven't been tested or you can't test them because there's nothing there to test, they don't have any kind of standards or they've been tested and they don't pass the test. So I tell people to be very wary of alternative healing.
Marcia Montenegro:And who are the people that do alternative healing?
Marcia Montenegro:Holistic practitioners, chiropractors, naturopaths, natural healers All of them do alternative healing.
Marcia Montenegro:And whatever reasons you may have against the medical field and a lot of people have a lot of very bitter feelings towards doctors or they've had bad experiences I always say no matter how negative that experience is, it doesn't justify going to these people, it doesn't make it OK, it doesn't matter if you had a horrible, I mean, it does matter, but it's not enough reason to go to one of these healers.
Marcia Montenegro:And I think that what's happened in the church is that going to these alternative healing healers has opened up christians to be more receptive to the concepts of energy. Because now I've seen it move from the alternative healing to these ideas about energy, where christians actually are telling me that this energy is from god and, um, you know, you can direct healing energy into a person, which is what you do with Reiki, and there are a lot of people who do Reiki. You think you know, say it's Christian, so they become more open to the idea that these teachings or these concepts can be Christian, because they try to Christianize them or say it's related to the Holy Spirit or something like that.
Marcia Montenegro:And so that's very dangerous once you start trying to Christianize a pagan practice, because then it makes it seem more acceptable and you lure other people into it that way, and I think that when you get involved in these things you open yourself up to further deception and who knows what else.
Kyle Peart:And delusion. So I think what happens is when you're deceived, you start and we use the word, or you use the word desensitize in your book that we'll be talking about. But it is a culture of desensitization and it's in every area, whether it's lust, whether it's. You know what's appropriate and inappropriate for behavior, when it comes to relationships, everything. But when we're talking about the spiritual end of things today and that desensitization is just, I mean, it's not crept in the church anymore, it's just embraced from the pulpit down and often it's because pastors and the leadership in a church isn't talking about it. I'm really glad to hear that youth group leaders are inviting you at all to talk with the kids, because if you want to reach this, I mean you've got to help the kids understand what's going on and the parents understand how big of a deal this really is. And you know things like Reiki and all of that, I think in my mind what I'm thinking is like you know, it started from a lot of. It started from the East, but it's also been around everywhere. Paganism, occultism, yeah, and the people who practice it understand that it's spiritual by nature.
Kyle Peart:But in order to get people to accept the lie, often you have to desensitize in a sense, or strip away, sanitize all of the spiritual stuff from it. And then you say, well, it's not really that, it's more science, it's more healing, it's more just medical, whatever. It is stretch, it's just stretching, you know, like for yoga, or it's it. It helps me, and I've heard people use anecdotal stories, it's like whatever. And so then you, you sanitize it and then the Christian world takes it in and then they apply spiritual, like biblical, concepts to it, then they slap biblical names on this thing.
Kyle Peart:That never was sanitized, it just was for us to get and take it in. So you went from a spiritual delusion to a sanitized delusion to then a christian delusion. You know it's a yeah and it's a delusion. And the problem then becomes not only for you, like you're practicing these things, but you're passing it along to other people you're passing it along to. But you're passing it along to other people, you're passing it along to your children, you're passing it along to the next generation. When Israel rejected God, it took one generation for them to just completely embrace a lot of lies.
Marcia Montenegro:So it doesn't take long and whole churches can be infected by one person who introduces these practices. I actually know of cases where that's happened and and I think your, your progression there of how it gets sanitized and then it gets a Christian label on it is very good. I think that that that does happen.
Marcia Montenegro:And for example, I was shocked as a new Christian when I I was very new and I found out some other Christians were doing homeopathy. I was very new and I found out some other christians were doing homeopathy. I knew what homeopathy was, I knew what it was based on. It's based on these spiritual beliefs and I was so shocked that these christian women were doing homeopathy. And I remember I was sitting in this little circle of women. I can't remember why I was there, if I was a speaker, I was visiting or what but I somebody said something about and I said homeopathy. I said that's not. I said that's like new age. And they were like they were so shocked and and kind of offended that I said it and I said well, you know, I know what it is. I was in the new age. It's new ages are in the homeopathy. It's not based it's based on into homeopathy.
Marcia Montenegro:It's not based it's based on goes back to vitalism, which is a pagan belief in a life force permeating, and so, um, you know, but they didn't really. You know, I was still a really new christian, I didn't know how to really explain things well and I didn't know the bible real super well, so I don't know. I can't recall exactly how that all ended, but I don't think that I convinced anybody that it was bad. So it's very frustrating for me sometimes because I see these things and I know what they are, and especially when I was a new believer I did want to address somebody asked about herbal.
Flynn Huseby:I was going to bring in. We're getting some really good questions.
Marcia Montenegro:So I can say something about both of those.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, let's talk about the herbal remedies. Are they wrong to take? And then, yeah, there's a few, and I think this is a good transition. These questions are really good because the next transition we were talking we're going to talk about experiences and the difference between truth and relativity and the way that people are coming about to knowing and growing in God by their own personal experiences instead of actually by the word of God. So I think this is a really good part for these. So thank you for bringing that up. So, yeah, herbal remedies.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, and that's a more complicated one, because, of course, herbs are just herbs. You know it's a neutral thing. They're not good or bad in and of themselves. Now the problem comes with a few areas. First of all, we have to remember nature is fallen. Okay and I think that was mentioned maybe Flynn you mentioned it that nature is corrupt. It was corrupted by, you know, the sin in the garden. So there's nothing really especially powerful or you know pure about nature, or or or herbs Cause a lot of people quote Genesis to me, but I'm like but that was before the fall, you know it was like before the fall. Remember the fall corrupted nature, remember that. So we need to keep that in mind.
Flynn Huseby:And what did he say would come from the fall? Weeds and, funny enough, lots of people are using weed, yeah.
Marcia Montenegro:So here's the I have cautions about it. Number one the herbs are not regulated. Okay, they're not regulated, so you don't really know what you're getting. So that's a caution. Another one is it can only be used for minor things and you need to make sure that it has that herb has the property it's been shown to be able to do something. Okay, like I know that I don't really know a lot about herbs, but I know tea tree oil can help. I think it's fungus or something like that. It has a property that it's known for that particular thing. So there's certain herbs that have an effect that has been shown. We know that from research. So, when you know that, you can use it for minor things.
Marcia Montenegro:But my caution would be this is not something to treat a major. Don't use herbs to treat cancer, you know. Don't use herbs to treat Parkinson's disease, don't, you know? Don't try to treat a major problem with herbs, because they aren't powerful enough. The reason that drugs are powerful is that they are concentrated. That's also why they cause side effects, which is unfortunate, but they also. I've had powerful drugs and I had some bad side effects, but also they healed me. I mean, they kept me from dying. So, you know, I'm I'm grateful to the Lord that there were men with brains who came up with these, these drugs that saved my life, and I'm willing to have the side effects because I'm alive, you know. Otherwise, yeah, I wouldn't have the side effects, but I'd also be dead.
Marcia Montenegro:So I'd rather be alive with the side effects. So if they're not real, herbs are not real powerful, they can only do minor things. And the other caution I would give with that is that the herb, herbal industry, if you want to call it, is connected to the natural, natural, natural foods, very much connected to the new age and to witchcraft. So if you really get into that area and you're looking at books or you're talking to people in a online group or something, you might come across people who are new agers or witches or christians who have fallen into that thinking, not realizing it. I actually know a christian woman who got into briefly for a time fortunately, because the lord, you know, drew her back out of it got into witchcraft through her interest in herbs and natural food, herbs and natural healing she actually got into which I don't think she realized what was going on when it happened yeah and you know, later she, she came, kind of came to her senses and God showed her.
Marcia Montenegro:But you know, don't? That's what the Bible tells us. Don't think that you can't be deceived. You know, and actually the New Testament, most of it, is full of warnings against false teachings, and those are written to Christians. So all of us can be deceived. All of us can be deceived. So just be careful. If you're into herbs, be careful that that's an area that can lead into the new age and the occult. But I'm not saying, I'm saying it's okay to use them if you research it, if that herb has that property, and if you're treating something minor, then it's all right.
Marcia Montenegro:Now the applied kinesiology. I I need to say something about that, because a lot of chiropractors and naturopaths use it, and christians, so many christians go to chiropractors, um, so, um, applied kinesiology is complete bunk. I'll just be really up front. It's complete bunk, complete bunk. I'll just be really upfront. It's complete bunk.
Marcia Montenegro:It's based on, originally, based on this belief of the vitalism of this energy in your body. And because, if you think about it, how is it that pushing your arm down and the resistance of your arm is going to tell you whether or not you should take a certain remedy. I had applied kinesiology done to me. It's very big in the new age Really. It's kind of using the body as a tool of divination. So you believe that the body has this inner wisdom and this is very common in the new age that your body has inner wisdom, and so I'm holding this bottle of vitamins and I don't know whether this vitamins are going to help me or not. So then the chiropractor whoever it is, pushes my arm down to see how much resistance there is and he determines from that and maybe something else I hold whether or not I should take it.
Marcia Montenegro:Now that's there's no, there, no nothing rational in there at all. It's complete. It's completely irrational because it's based on a spiritual view. That is nonsense. It is complete nonsense. Please, please, please, do not do applied kinesiology, which is also called muscle testing, and I want to say don't mix up applied kinesiology with kinesiology. Kinesiology is an actual science of how the, I think, the muscles and the tissues work together, or something like that. You can look it up because I might be remembering it wrong, and it's used, I think, a lot in sports, sports medicine so kinesiology is a natural thing.
Marcia Montenegro:That's okay. But apply kinesiology is what I'm talking about, and sometimes they'll call it muscle testing. They might even be coming up with other words for it. That's another thing you have to be careful about, because sometimes they'll use a different term, um, but it just. You know, if it doesn't make sense to you, it's because it doesn't make sense, and they'll even do remote applied kinesiology, like the chiropractor or naturopath or whoever will, will do it on you, for your child. I mean, how much sense does that make?
Flynn Huseby:It doesn't.
Marcia Montenegro:It doesn't make any sense at all. So I'm glad that person mentioned it. I might not have thought of it, yeah.
Kyle Peart:Well, I would say too, really quickly. A lot of people go to massage therapy. So when you go to massage therapists, there's a difference between a sports medicine person that actually is trained, I think. Anyway, and you can correct me if I'm wrong I'm happy to take the correction, marsha, because I don't know everything and we're three party poopers right here, so I'm happy to have a party of party poopers, but you know, from what I understand, you know there is, there is science to muscles and how, yeah, and so there's obviously some areas that are helpful for sports medicine and for certain stretches.
Kyle Peart:I'm not talking about yoga, but stretching and training and all of that. So if you, if you have issues, it's probably better to look at more of the sports medicine side of things. But even then I would always like I've had to go to a little bit of massage and chiropractic only because of some back issues, and I'm really picky. The person I go to is more always sports medicine based. It has nothing to do with any of this and I interview them and talk to them and if they have anything to do with Reiki, anything to do with Eastern mysticism, they're done. I won't let them even touch me or anything and like the few times that I've had to do massage for certain areas. Thankfully I have a sports medicine massage person that just does muscle groups and I made sure that they do not. And what some of them will do just so people know is they will apply Reiki or energy transferring whether you ask them to do it or not. That's what they're doing.
Kyle Peart:Exactly, exactly. That's why you have to be really clear If this does this person practice anything to do with energy healing, maybe they don't practice it on your session per se, but if they actually have that category because a lot of massage therapists have categories they work in and if that's one of their categories, that I would not do it because they will do it in spite of you. So I would say, be really wise, careful, ask lots of questions before just jumping into any of that stuff and, whether it's intentional on your part or not, it's just better not to try to open any doors, accidentally or intentionally.
Marcia Montenegro:Yes, and yeah, I'm glad you brought up massage therapy. I did a post on that several years ago. Massage and massage therapy are two different things. Massage therapy didn't even really exist or that term didn't exist, I don't think. Before the 80s there was a huge massage therapy school in Atlanta. I knew I had a lot of astrology clients who were studying to be massage therapists. All massage therapy schools in the United States and I think in Canada incorporate new age practices and a new age worldview and they will mix that. Some of the things they teach are factual about the body, but they'll mix in the new age stuff.
Marcia Montenegro:And I knew massage therapy was new age and I remember the first time I came across a young woman who was a Christian woman in a Christian home. I was actually staying in their home while I was speaking somewhere that was, you know, in another state and she said she wanted to go to massage therapy school and I almost fell out of my chair Because I was like what, what you wanted? It was almost like she said she wanted to go to astrology school or something. I was like I told her. I said you know, it's new age. It's like she kind of didn't really believe me, but I mean it incorporates this view of the body.
Marcia Montenegro:That's new age and they will. They will say things that sound scientific, that aren't so. They'll say, well, if you massage this, it'll release this, this in the body or whatever, and it may or may not. So you know, I personally have just said now I know there's Christian massage therapists and some of them have told me I'm very careful, I don't use any new age. And some of them have told me I'm very careful, I don't use any new age. You know ideas, but I don't know if what they learned at the school, if they realized it was new age or not. They may have believed it.
Marcia Montenegro:So I personally would not go to any massage therapist, christian or not, that's just that's just me. You know you have to make your own decision, but be very careful and, like what you I've actually told people that I've said be very specific that you do not, you just want a physical massage. You don't want anything else, you just want a physical. You know my muscles are tight. I need you to massage them. You know them. You know, um, but like, you said, if they do the energy thing.
Marcia Montenegro:They may do it on you anyway, and so, consequently, I I would love to have a massage, but I have not gone to get a massage because, because of that I haven't gone and someone actually gave me a gift, um, or was going to give me a gift for a massage, and I just decided not to use it because I just don't want to put myself in that I can live without a massage. And if you're really having a physical problem, you know, go get a phys, then go to a doctor, have him or her refer you to a physical therapist. For that specific, I had a frozen shoulder several years ago.
Kyle Peart:It's very painful and I had to go to a physical therapist.
Marcia Montenegro:I'm not to a physical therapist. I'm not saying a massage therapist would even say they could treat it. Maybe they would, I don't know. But I went to a physical therapist but even there I need to say very sadly that some physical therapists have gotten into energy healing.
Flynn Huseby:It is just infecting.
Marcia Montenegro:It is infecting the whole health care world. Yes, it is. It is infecting the whole health care world. Yes, it is the medical world because there are hospitals now that will offer things like acupuncture and stuff like that because they realize people want it. So it's really hard to it's hard, it's hard to navigate all this and I've had serious illnesses and the place, the hospitals that I went for treatment, there were flyers. You know they would have a place where they had flyers and there were flyers where you go and get all of this alternative healing, which was all new age.
Marcia Montenegro:It was all new Reiki. Reiki was advertised and all this new age stuff. So people who go there and don't know about it are like, oh look, I can go get this. You know, and it's just navigating, it's being in the waters with sharks. You're in the water with sharks, so just keep that in mind.
Flynn Huseby:As you two are talking. I was thinking about this because it is hard the things you're saying like. Navigating these waters are hard, but that's that's the reminder in Proverbs 4 20. It says, my son, attend to my words, incline thine ear into my sayings. Let them not depart from thine eyes. Keep them in the midst of thine heart, for they are life unto those that find them and health to all their flesh. Keep thy heart with all diligence, and out of it are the issues of life. So it becomes really easy even though it is hard. It becomes really easy when you rely on the Lord and what he says and we find strength and healing from Him. It may not be physical healing, like you said earlier, but it'd be better to lose an arm than end up in really bad spots. And Jesus himself said then go to the pit of hell with two members. Now that's regarding someone that actually doesn't put their faith and trust in them. It's not anything else. But even a believer can really hinder their relationship with God when going down this road.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, and others, and others.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, good point.
Kyle Peart:So, yeah, and it's, it's. It's just the world we live in. I mean, my wife was diagnosed with cancer in 2010. She went home to be with the Lord in 2014. And that's what motivated her, though, to write, thank you. You know, she wrote a book just called Comforting Christ, and it's just a cancer devotional that she went through, and she did a blog, but immediately, almost right away you know whether it was through the Christian community or the doctors they were handing us stuff, and that was 2010.
Kyle Peart:Yeah, and saying, hey, you need to go to these things, you need to try these things. They had groups that were like reiki groups and both my wife and I just thought, and so she was trying to find just some good devotionals, and she said I can't find a good godly devotional just trusting the lord through these times, because they all recommend all this garbage. Even the christian ones get into all this weird metaphysical stuff and and mystical stuff. So that's what kind of motivated her to put the book together.
Kyle Peart:Yeah absolutely, and it's just sad because a lot of it looks scientific. It sounds scientific and this has been how Satan. We talked about evolution. We had a whole series on evolution. We haven't done one yet on psychology, but at some point that is our desire. Psychotherapy specifically.
Kyle Peart:A lot of that is under the guise of science. Freud when he invented a lot of those ideas, he put Greek names to them to make them sound scientific, when they were nothing more than shamanistic. And so you've got a whole realm of the world today that's embraced. What they think is science, and the Bible calls it science falsely so-called or knowledge falsely so-called. So we have to use discernment and, like you said, marcia, really quickly. The research is out there. We have access to the internet, which is full of garbage, but there is also. There are scientific things studying herbs and what herbs really work. You can go research pretty much anything if you understand what sites to go to and what to look at and see whether these things really work or whether it's just a bunch of anecdotal evidence that some company puts out because they can make money on it. And that's really what the company a lot of the companies. They just care about the money and they know they could make lots of money at the stuff. You get people like dr oz and and other people.
Marcia Montenegro:Uh, oh yeah, dr oz is a new ager, he's admitted he's a follower of Swedenborg who was kind of the grandfather of New Thought. New Thought is a separate movement from New Age but the New Age incorporates a lot of New Thought which I don't have time to go into.
Marcia Montenegro:New Thought but I do have an article on my website on it and doctor, and so there are some New Age doctors like Dr Oz. Deepak Chopra no longer practices medicine, but he's a doctor from Harvard. He got his degree from Harvard. There's several new age doctors I do. I want to address something that someone said there, because that you know, this is a. This is something that people may be thinking. What he said he said oh, you mean the medical world that changes boys into girls and girls into boys, and I think he made a comment that the medical world was demonic. Let's make a distinction between ethical behavior and what medicine is OK.
Marcia Montenegro:Medicine itself is based on research and on the discovery of God's creation. That's what science is. Science is the discovery of God's creation and how God put certain laws into effect, and so we can learn about the body by observing it, by noticing things that happen with the body when we're sick. All of that's been studied and that's used as research. And then, when they come up with medicines, they have to test them and you know normally they're careful before they put it out there for people to take. That's all based on objective data. Yes, there can be mistakes, you know. I'm not saying that anything's perfect, but the but the medical world in terms of the ethical part of it, like doctors who may do abortions or doctors who do, you know, gender changes and things like that. That's a different issue. That has nothing to do with the fact that medicine is based on objective data and alternative healing is based on spiritual views. That's what I'm talking about.
Marcia Montenegro:I'm not endorsing all the practices of every doctor in the world that that's their choice, that's an ethical choice that they choose to do, that that has to do with a moral principle.
Kyle Peart:Yeah, that's more of the how.
Marcia Montenegro:I'm talking about objective data for research, so I just want to make that clear.
Kyle Peart:That's a good clarity. I mean, you can't base everything off of how somebody chooses to use medicine.
Kyle Peart:Yeah, exactly what you're saying is that the medicine itself is a different field than the natural homeopathic world. And the reason you bring that up, I think, is fair because people blur those lines, maybe unintentionally. They see the destruction of the way medicine can be used. But just like any tool, you could use a tool poorly, but it doesn't mean the tool itself is poor, it just means the person is poor in it. That doesn't mean it. Yeah, anyway we. I know we're running low on time, kyle, go ahead well the problem is their.
Flynn Huseby:Their world view is showing when they do those things, and just like sinful man, even if they say they're scientists, whether professor or seminary teacher I mean pastors like every person, has a heart that is desperately wicked and swayed and persuaded by their own innermost thoughts and individualistic ideas. And so a scientist can be, you know, a health practitioner, but their worldview is skewed because they're starting with the grounds of presupposition. So it gets, it becomes more real for me when you start seeing those things, because it just reveals the heart of man and not to put our trust in men. There's quite a bit of questions. I really want to get to your book. Do you have time for maybe two more questions?
Flynn Huseby:There was one that I don't want to miss, this one, because I think this is really interesting. I don't know if you've heard this before, but there's a lot in the scriptures that talk about casting lots. I mean jonah, I looked it up real quick jonah 1, 7, uh numbers 26, joshua 18. Even the apostles in um in acts 1, they cast lots to, to, to find out who is going to be the new uh, you know so yes, I can actually jump into that.
Marcia Montenegro:Yes, I actually address that in my book.
Flynn Huseby:Oh okay.
Marcia Montenegro:But yeah, when you look at casting lots in the Old Testament, apparently that was done with gods. Well, for example, the Umin and Thumin which they don't really know what they were, but they think they were two stones that were in the priest's garment and casting lots was apparently done as a God-directed activity. It was never against God, it was a way that people got God's will and he did that mainly in the Old Testament. In the New Testament the part you mentioned in Acts, they prayed first and then they cast the lots, and that's the last time you see Christians casting lots. That is the last time there is no other mention of Christians doing lots. I think on Jonah it was the pagan sailors, right who were casting lots.
Flynn Huseby:Yep.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, and because it's done by pagans. Um, so pretty much it's. It's not done by the church anymore, because that was the last time in acts, that's not. So casting lots is not something to do today, because then you're either doing divination or you're relying on chance. I mean it's okay if it's like, should we go to the movies tonight? Let's toss a coin. You know, heads will stay in and watch something on TV, tails will go out to a movie. I mean, that's not, that's different. That's where you're just, you know, you're just doing a random thing because you can't decide. But if you're really trying to get an answer or determine something, we don't. We don't do that kind of thing. That's um, you know, but and god did, did just things differently with israel, but he never endorsed any, any divination.
Kyle Peart:Now, that was not no, that's clear, that's clear throughout scripture. And it's funny, how interesting anyway, how people often will go back and look at israel, whether it's through some of the ritual. You know some of the things that they had to do for their, for Israel, and they'll try to apply it to today, and there's reasons. God had them do what they did and you know they were obviously there. God's not done with Israel yet. He's still working with them. But as a Christian, as a Christian born again, believers, like you said, that's not something that's ever taught, it's not ever something embraced. We don't have to build a temple, we don't have to do certain things to get to God, because Jesus took care of all that on the cross. So there's certain things in the Old Testament that are historical, they're biblical, they're true, but we don't have to apply everything from the old testament to the new. Um. And so, marcia, are you saying I have to get rid of my magic eight ball? Then is that what you're saying?
Marcia Montenegro:I the reason I've been asked about magic eight balls before the reason um, yeah, the reason that I discourage them is because it gives kids the idea that um, it gives kids the idea that, um, it gives them the idea that divination is okay.
Marcia Montenegro:It's really not a divinatory tool because it's really kind of silly but it gives the idea that it's okay to ask an object, a question, or to think that god or somebody is going to answer you with this object. So it plants the wrong idea in your head. So that's why I do not want to get a magic eight ball for children.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, yeah yeah I agreed. I got a second peter one, uh, pulled up. It says grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of god and of jesus, our lord, according as his divine power has given us unto all things that pertain unto life. So we have direct access to the personal God that you talked about, that you didn't know. We have direct access to Him. And so, again, it becomes really easy when we trust God's word. I mean, it may not say, do I turn left at the light when I, you know, pull up here, the Bible doesn't say that but as you seek to to magnify the sun in your daily life, things become pretty easy because you're always thinking kingdom, minded of glorifying the sun and making him known. And how can I grow in his word? So you know, when he says he's given us all things to pertain to life and godliness, it's like, yeah, we can make wise decisions because we have his complete canon, we have his complete word, exactly.
Marcia Montenegro:I really agree with that. And the more you know scripture and the more you live, you know going to church, praying, worshiping with other believers, fellowshipping with them, and you know you learn from other believe, mature Christians too. And the more you you start thinking a certain way biblically. You start thinking biblically, you start assessing things using god's judgment that he's revealed, and and then you, that helps you make decisions. And sometimes it's hard. Sometimes you don't know should I take that job or not. I don't know. I'm going to pray about it.
Marcia Montenegro:You pray, you're still not sure you make the best decision you can and you trust the lord. You just trust god with it. You, you know, you say god, I decided to take this job and not this one. I'm not sure if that's the right one, but I think it's the best one. And please help me do a good job with this. Help me with this. I trust you in what? In the outcome? So it comes down to knowing God and trusting God and knowing his word, and that's what gets us through things. We don't need to be told for every little thing you know, we don't need to have directions from God, like do I go to a movie this weekend? Do I go to my friend's wedding? We don't have to have that.
Marcia Montenegro:You know that's. That's the pagan world where they're always needing. You know they cause they don't have any information they always need input, you know. That's why they go to astrologers, that's why they go to psychics, that's why they go to palm readers, because they always need this input. They don't have any guidance, you know, any broad guidance, but we have. We have that in God's word and we have that through our relationship with Christ and through the church.
Kyle Peart:So you know, we don't need that kind of input.
Kyle Peart:And what happens often and as you're talking, marsha and Kyle, I'm thinking about this too is when you deal with these people who are saying that you can go to experience, that you can go to these people and all of these other avenues other than to God's word, often what you will find is you will find a lack of hunger for God's word in your own life. You'll find that all these experiences become more valuable and I think that's why people keep going back and back to these people. They're looking for that next experience, they're looking for that next fix, because they want to make sure they're on the right track and the only way they can know that is through the experience. And when you chase that road, a couple of things happen. Number one, like you said, it's endless doors, to the point to where you're lost. But also you become a bit mindless. You stop thinking for yourself, you stop engaging your own understanding and discernment.
Kyle Peart:That's exactly where Satan wants us. He doesn't want us to be critically minded, critical thinkers, he doesn't want us to be discerning. And then, as a believer, we have the Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth, and we have the word of God. And often in these, when you go down these roads, whether it's following something like Jesus Calling or other. You know the shack or all those books that came out. People would chase those books as if they were the Bible, to the point to where they're not even reading their Bibles anymore. They don't have a love for God's word anymore. It becomes distasteful to read God's word and so if you find yourself getting away from God's word.
Kyle Peart:There may be reasons for that. You might be chasing a rabbit that you're not supposed to be chasing down a hole, so just be careful of that getting distracted. One of the things we've been talking about in the classroom is Satan's lies, because we were going through Jeremiah 10, 10 through 12, and how God is the God of creation, he's the everlasting king, he's the true and living God. And these gods that claim are these gods that have not made the heavens and the earth. They shall perish. And all of these gods were talking about these false avenues. These are all the gods that have not made the heavens and the earth and they shall perish. But God said I formed the world by, or the world was formed by, his power and by his wisdom. So you know, we go to God for wisdom, we go to God for our strength and our security. But I was telling the kids I said but we need to know some of Satan's basic lies. So we somebody we listened to recently came up with three Ds.
Kyle Peart:It's the distraction, the deception and the destruction. And so the kids I've been nailing that with them all week, or going over that with them. It's just, it comes from distraction and as Christians we're so easily distracted. And once you get distracted into going to a homeopath or going to this or doing that, and then the deception comes, you leave the door open to that deception and eventually there's a piece of your life that's going to end up being destroyed, especially our relationship with God, and that's what we don't want. That's why I'm sure Marcia takes the time to do these kind of talks, even with all the health issues and other things, and that's why we take the time. We don't want people to be deceived.
Flynn Huseby:We don't want people to be distracted and we certainly don't want people to be deceived, we don't want people to be distracted and we certainly don't want people to be destroyed. Yeah, I really want to be respectful of your time, so let's let's close in on tell us about the re-release of your book.
Marcia Montenegro:Oh yeah, spellbound the Paranormal Seduction of Today's Kids. I was actually asked to write this book out of the blue. I was so shocked I thought it was a scam email. I had to call them and say, did you actually send this to me? So I was contacted and they had the idea already of what they wanted. They wanted it to be a guide on understanding, seeing the occult in the culture that is especially targeting younger people, children and younger people. So that's what the book is about and it came out in 2006. So now it's being republished, not by Cook, but it's being republished. Midwest Christian Outreach is taking charge of it. Don Vino and his wife are the head of that ministry. I've known them for many, many years and he actually, he and they and I co-authored the Enneagram book, richard Rohr, and the Enneagram Secret authored the Enneagram book, richard Warren, the Enneagram Secret, and so that should come out. Spellbound should come out later this month, tentatively. It's to come out on October 31st Actually, and that's my birthday, by the way.
Marcia Montenegro:Oh happy pre birthday and my son's birthday too. He was born two weeks early on my birthday, so that was really a surprise for me and um and so, uh, it's supposed to come out around then. So I can't say it's exactly that day, because I asked don and he said tentatively that day. So, um, it should be very close to that day. It will have a different cover now. Right now the book you're showing is the way it is on Amazon and you can get it on Kindle. It's very hard to get print copies. You have to get them from sellers and sometimes, for whatever reason, the prices are astronomical. I mean like $80 or something crazy. I don't know how that happens. So people have been asking me, for especially the last couple of years I've had people email me and say how can I get a print copy of your book? And I didn't have an answer for that, and so the upshot of that is that Don very graciously said he would take over republishing it, and so that will be available to use very soon as a print copy.
Flynn Huseby:Okay, and where do you recommend people going to get it, do you? I have the website pulled up right now.
Marcia Montenegro:Well, right now I would say, you know for sure it's going to be on Amazon. I need to ask Don that question, but I'm sure it'll be available on other other booksellers or, you know, maybe Christian I don't know maybe Christian book distributors. I'm not sure I'm going to have to ask him that question because I haven't asked him that question actually.
Marcia Montenegro:So it's still so unreal to me that it's coming out, but you can at least try Amazon and it may be. Don may set up a page for it. He set up a page for the Enneagram secret book. So I'm going to be posting on Facebook. I'll be posting information on Facebook and maybe I'll put a page on my website too to let people know, once we get those links, we'll put them up too.
Flynn Huseby:We'll put it in the video. But I highly encourage because I mean we talked a lot about these things and the way that this stuff affects the culture. We barely scratched the surface on how ingrained I mean you mentioned frozen, but it is affecting the kids, they are going after the kids and this stuff is in every Disney movie. I mean every single cartoon Avenue. Bbc is corrupted and it's, it's everywhere.
Marcia Montenegro:It is everywhere Much more, much more so than when I first wrote the book. It's much more more in the culture. It's much more common now. There's more forms of it. It's more popular. The culture is totally desensitized to it. Unfortunately, I think the church is getting desensitized to it. Unfortunately, I think the church is getting desensitized to it oh, it's so there, yeah it's gonna be yeah, and what you said earlier really shows that.
Marcia Montenegro:I think the you know, I think that the book is coming out at a coming out again in a good time to I agree yeah no, it's, and I've just as a testimony.
Kyle Peart:I I ordered it on eBay a few weeks back when we knew that you were lined up to be on our show and I've been going through it and I will tell you as a teacher, it's a good resource book because at the end of certain chapters and subheadings it's got like, how do I then apply these things? It's got some good charts, or a couple of good charts in there. It's got a lot of good little bullet points, lots of good scriptures. So it's easy to pick through, read. It's a couple hundred pages but it was really easy to read. Lots of excellent information, well-researched.
Kyle Peart:I know one of the things I've enjoyed listening to some of your programs is the research that you do. You brought up a lot with it, a little bit today with the Enneagram and people I know I listened to some of that. I didn't. I knew it was big, I didn't realize how big, so that's a whole nother subject. But that's another area. That's really just. You know a lot of the churches embracing it, some of the stuff that I see. You know, what I noticed in the book is, even though it was written in 2006, it's addressing a lot of the foundational views that are affecting what we have today. So it's still completely applicable 110% applicable to what we're dealing with today, because it's giving people an understanding of the basis or the foundation of where these things are coming from, of the basis or the foundation of where these things are coming from and when people start to get that. And that's where you know with apologetics, a lot of times people say, well, I can't remember everything about everything and it's like great. But if you understand a few highlights of the way Satan works, it helps because then you can start to catch it in every area.
Kyle Peart:And I know you bring up things like even Yu-Gi-Oh, which very few people ever brought up back then you know there was Pokemon, digimon and Yu-Gi-Oh and being in that world I mean I just lived in that world, being a teacher for so many years and trying to explain to anybody that I worked with the dangers of these things and I mean I had a co-teacher. We taught at a Christian summer camp and there was like 60 kids that came there and it was great. But he was into Yu-Gi-Oh and he was into Pokemon and and I tried, I gave him art. There were a few articles I found that were really good, from Barik Kojos' site and I, you know, I said, hey, look at these. And he just he totally disagreed and I, it broke my heart and you know I grabbed this. I grabbed this the other day and you know this is it's not getting less, you know, less popular. It's all the stuff that that you deal with in the book is is very much relevant for today.
Marcia Montenegro:Yeah, thank you for saying that. And yeah, I do, I do. I base it all on Deuteronomy 18, 10 and 11. And I talk about all the terms in there, the Hebrew terms. I did research it. I don't. I you know. I'm not saying I know Hebrew, but I did research the words very carefully and had it checked out. And you know, because if we understand the principles of the occult then we can recognize it. We don't have to know all the books that are bad and a list of all the you know video games that are bad. I mean, you could never do that. But if you know the principles of the occult and what to look for, then you can recognize it for yourself. And that's what I was trying to do with the book.
Kyle Peart:That's exactly what people need, because it's good to know some details, obviously, about certain things if you're dealing with it with a group of people. But if you're in a women's study at a church, all it takes is one person to bring in the next new thing, because there'll be no more new things coming down the pike. But even though it's a new thing, it's still going to have those same practices, generally speaking. So if you hear that, you go, oh okay, well, no, that doesn't work for us because we're not going to creation, we're going to the creator. We're staying with the God's word. You, we're going to the creator, we're staying with the god's word you know, give us the old paths, not the new ones.
Kyle Peart:So right, I really enjoyed the book. I actually, like I said, I'm going to be passing along to my um, to my administrator, only because I think she'll recognize from somebody who's researched and been in that maybe a little bit, or, you know, she might be a little more open to it, um than just me talking to her so I I really appreciate it, thank you.
Marcia Montenegro:Well, thank you.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah well, thank you so much for this discussion. Christiananswersnewagecom. So you can say KANA short, but don't just Google KANA C-A-N-A, because a lot of weird stuff comes in. I did it earlier and it doesn't work.
Marcia Montenegro:There's a lot of different groups that use that acronym.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, there are. There's a ton, and the same for Spellbound. When you type in Spellbound and look for that, make sure you use her name, marsha Montenegro, because there's a lot of books titled Spellbound.
Marcia Montenegro:There are, oh, there's so many.
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, so everyone go check out and make sure and be prepared for her republish. Highly encourage that. Flynn's deep diving he's got it behind his head so he's been reading through that and and Marcia said she's going to share a copy and so I can dive into it. Thank you so much for your time. This has been a really good discussion. A lot of people on the chats have been really encouraged and we're just we're really grateful for what you do, because it is rare and so thank you for for definitely encouraging and serving the church the way you do.
Marcia Montenegro:Absolutely. I'm grateful God put me in this ministry and he's given me opportunities like being on your program and more people can get information and know where to go for more information. If they want to contact me, you can email me from my website, so I'm always open to answering questions. So thank you so much for having me on and I really I enjoyed it very much good and I would love, I'd love to.
Kyle Peart:I didn't even think about with the zoom. I would love to take you up on the offer from my classroom to have you do a little talk. I I would at some point, so I would love to talk to children, teens and young adults.
Marcia Montenegro:I really, I'm really like have a heart for the younger, younger groups, so I will, I would love to do it sure good, well, we'll work on that kyle can I?
Kyle Peart:know scripture, do you mind?
Flynn Huseby:Yeah, yep. What do you want to close with?
Kyle Peart:All right If you could go to Proverbs, just been thinking a lot about the fear of the Lord. I know you quoted from Proverbs earlier. This isn't probably going to deal too much with the fear of the Lord. It will a little bit. But I've reading through Proverbs again, which is just such a good reminder for me. But Proverbs chapter seven or chapter eight, actually chapter eight, and then I think maybe in verse four.
Kyle Peart:I'm going to start in verse four, so if you want to just open that up, it says this in verse four unto you, O men, I call and my voice is. To the sons of man, O you, simple, understand wisdom and you, fools, be of an understanding heart. Hear, for I will speak of excellent things and the opening of my lips shall be right things, For my mouth shall speak truth, and wickedness is an abomination to my lips. All the words of my mouth are in righteousness and there is nothing froward or perverse in them. They are all plain to him that understands and right to them that find knowledge. Verse 10 says receive my instruction and not silver and knowledge, rather than choice gold for wisdom Speaking of heavenly wisdom, by the way, they're not earthly wisdom, but it says, for wisdom is better than rubies and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
Kyle Peart:And then a couple more verses. Verse 12, I wisdom, dwell with the prudence and find out knowledge of witty inventions. Verse 13 says the fear of the Lord is to hate. Evil pride and arrogancy and the evil way and the froward mouth do I hate. Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom I am understanding and I have strength. So, just as people are hearing these things, we need to get back to God's word for our wisdom. We don't have to go to the world, we don't have to go to experiences, we don't have to go to the next best Christian published book. Immediately we have to go to God's word with humility and the fear of the Lord to have true wisdom and understanding. And that's really what God wants from all of us. And it's not complicated, it's very beautiful, it's very simple, it's just us having a good godly relationship with Jesus through his word and through his spirit, not through this world that's fallen. So that's our encouragement to you and Marcia. Thank you so much. We really do appreciate it.
Marcia Montenegro:Oh well, thank you. Thank you for having me.
Flynn Huseby:All right, guys, until the next stream. Thank you, subscribe if you haven't already, and we can't wait to see you on the next one, doreen Virtue is next Tuesday night, so make sure and join us. And we're going to talk about, in series two, the occult in the church and we're going to deep dive that, so look forward to doing that. Thank you all and God bless you. See you all soon.
Kyle Peart:See you guys, and God bless you. See you all soon. See you guys, bye.
