Amos 3:7 A Love of The Truth
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Amos 3:7 A Love of The Truth
Balancing Grace and Truth in Today's Church with LGBTQ
Can we truly find fulfillment by embracing our deepest desires, or does true satisfaction come from a deeper connection with our Creator? Join us as we bring Brady Cohn from Calibrate Ministries into the spotlight to share his deeply personal and transformative journey of faith. Brady's story of overcoming same-sex attraction through Christ's love provides a powerful testimony that will resonate with anyone wrestling with identity and belonging.
Through our discussion, Brady unpacks the complexities of navigating faith, sexuality, and identity, particularly in light of Pride Month. Together, we explore how the church can balance grace and truth in addressing issues of sexuality and gender, offering much-needed support to individuals and families. The conversation delves into the universal human experience of battling sin, highlighting the importance of turning back to God for true fulfillment and the role of discipleship in untangling the distortions of our hearts.
We also tackle some of the most provocative questions surrounding same-sex attraction and identity. Is being "born different" an excuse to live a certain lifestyle? How can Christians compassionately reach out to the LGBTQ community without compromising their faith? Brady's insights, coupled with scriptural reflections, underscore the need for a compassionate and understanding community. This episode challenges us to be ambassadors of Christ, engaging with others through the power of Jesus' transformative love, and offering hope and renewal to all.
Join us for an inspiring and heartfelt interview with Brady Cone of Calibrate Ministries. In this powerful testimony, Brady shares his personal journey of coming out of the LGBTQ community and finding true hope and freedom in Jesus Christ. Hear firsthand about the challenges he faced, including feelings of rejection by some Christians and the transformative love shown by others.
This interview delves deep into Brady's story of coming out of the closet, reflecting on the celebration of Pride Month 2024, and exploring what genuine love and acceptance in Christ looks like. Discover how Brady's faith in Jesus as his personal Savior brought real change, healing, and freedom.
Don't miss this compelling conversation that highlights the transformative power of God's love and the hope found in a relationship with Him. Like, share, and subscribe for more stories of faith and redemption.
Video Credit: @Once Lost Ministries at YouTube
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All right, everybody, welcome to Once Lost Ministries. This is Growing and Going, where we have a desire to grow and know who Jesus is. That is why we are here. We open up His Word and we search the scriptures daily to see whether these things are so, and there's just so many things going on today. I am Kyle Peart Flynn Hughesby, and a special guest today with us is Brady Cohn. Brady is with Calibrate Conversations and, man, we're just so grateful to have you. Thank you for joining us. I know it's late in Seattle, so thank you.
Speaker 2:No problem, so glad to be here, kyle and Flynn.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right on, man. We put this together last minute and there's a lot of If anyone's familiar with Brady, if not, he's going to fill you in here shortly. But the date today whether someone watches this video in six months or not, the date today is May 30th. But June 1st is coming up, which is the start of Pride Month, which is a full-on month dedicated to pride, and I think we're going to get into that a little bit. I think there's some irony in the statement of that, which I'd really love to engage and open that up.
Speaker 1:But, man, I pray that anyone watching this right now hears our heart. I pray that you're quick to listen and slow to speak. I pray for that from our hearts as well. Uh, we know that these conversations regarding pride and and uh, homosexuality is a very tough conversation, but the Lord has given us um surety on how to engage as we walk in the spirit.
Speaker 1:So, the Christians watching we pray that you are seeking the Lord as we think about and talk about these things, engage in his word. And those that have questions right now I pray that you hear the message that we're sharing. We truly do love you. We truly do have a desire for you to know the truth and as we get through and talk about specific things on this I hope you hear that from us talk about specific things on this. I hope you hear that from us and it may not sound or feel comforting, but ultimately we do want you to come to the knowledge of truth that has hope and redemption in who God is and the love that he has for you, for all of us equally. So, that being said, brady, tell us a little bit about yourself Thank you for being on here and just tell us who you are, man, and tell us about your ministry first, before we get into others Sounds great.
Speaker 2:So I'm Brady Cohn. I live here at Enumclaw Washington, just outside of Seattle, but I'm from the Midwest, grew up in Nebraska, born and raised, so go Big Red Husker fan through and through. So when you're from Nebraska you have to be so. It's the only option, so I live outside Seattle here now with my wife and two little kids, and my studio here is on our little farm. We have a little farm and we raise miniature donkeys, and so if you want to stalk my Facebook.
Speaker 2:find me on Facebook and it's usually flooded with donkey pictures and cat pictures and my little kids pictures.
Speaker 1:So nice between my two goats and we got chickens too and your donkeys we could have like a full on mini farm dude.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely Sounds, sounds wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So what does the Lord kind of call you to? I know you have a we, we, we generalize you know with apologetics and evangelism here on the channel. But what do you kind of navigate and introduce yourself ministry-wise to the people listening?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm the executive director of Calibrate Ministries and we help people embrace God's standard for sexuality, so you guys will be hearing my story about what God's done in my life in regards to sexuality, and we see such a need in the church to be equipped. I don't think there's any other issue today that we need to be equipped more than when it comes to sexuality and gender, and so I mostly travel and speak. I usually do about 40 speaking engagements in churches a year, and so I'm traveling on the weekends with my family speaking in churches, and then we do a podcast and we have a parents ministry for parents of LGBTQ kids to really walk alongside them and minister to their hearts, and so, yeah, so it's really just an overflow of what God has done in my life. I've found so much freedom in Christ and he's done so much work in my life and transforming my sexuality that I want to see other people find that same hope in Christ.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the one thing that really really spoke to me is you also have a weekly engagement I don't know if you want to tell us more about that, but where you are openly available in discussion with people struggling with these specific desires.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I do a lot of follow-up and one-on-one discipleship with people who are struggling. I always have to be careful not to develop long-term discipleship. I believe that God put the local church on earth to be the primary means of discipleship, and my job is to equip the local church. But it's so sometimes life-giving to have someone who relates to you, and when I came to know Christ and was trying to walk away from homosexual life, I had no one else who understood. I had never met someone else who had found victory over it, and so I want people to see that there is hope that they can live a different life.
Speaker 2:And so many times I sit down with other guys who are struggling and they've never heard a story of hope before, and so I want to be available for guys to be able to have someone who understands, and I think that's one of the hardest parts in the church for guys dealing with same-sex attraction. It feels like there's no other guys who understand, even though we're all feels like there's no other guys who understand, even though we're all sinners. We all struggle with different sin issues. This just feels different than all the other guys and none of them quite get me, and so I've been just blessed to be able to be that person for a lot of guys who understands what they're feeling and thinking and going through. But then I do my best to point them back to their local church and help them dig into discipleship there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's really fundamental for this conversation, I think, for people to see the reality that it's not social media Christianity talking right now for the listeners watching.
Speaker 1:I think there's so many cliches out there and you could probably elaborate further on that with your testimony and tell us kind of how the Lord led you through that. But I know that between the hashtags and the memes and the gifs and all those things, there's a real clarity on how to have these conversations and what hope is that you just said that comes from the God of the scriptures and not from the people on Facebook whether that's Christian that are engaging poorly, that are young. I mean, I could tell you I was an overzealous, very immature young believer and I just wanted to tell people lots of things but I hurt a lot of people. I said a lot of crude, rude things and I'm well aware of that. Just zealous without love, and so I know those things happen. But, yeah, tell us more about yourself and kind of build us a ground, you know, of understanding kind of the group we're talking to and where you're coming from.
Speaker 2:Sounds great. So I'll just start from the beginning with my story. Like I said, I grew up in Nebraska, grew up on a farm, very rural. I always joke with people here in Enumclaw when they talk about this being rural. It's like you guys don't know where rural is. And so I grew up in a town of 100 people and a county of 400. And so very rural.
Speaker 2:And I had my family, brother and sisters, and I always remember just feeling different than the rest of the boys. I remember looking at my dad and my older brother and thinking there's just something different about me that I don't quite relate to them, I don't feel like I'm one of them. And it wouldn't be until years later when I'd figure out what some of those differences were. In the meantime we were a good church-going family. You know, we did all the things that small town church going family was supposed to do. We went to church on Sundays, we prayed before our meals. We had the image of this great church going Christian family. But I did grow up knowing that I was a sinner who needed Jesus as my savior and I'm thankful to have been told that truth from an early age.
Speaker 2:But when I was a little bit older, about 11,. That's when I really started to struggle and my family's life kind of got turned upside down and my parents got a divorce and the whole image of being a good church family was blown, and I was really struggling with this chaos in my family's life and felt like everything was chaotic. And during that time I started to discover, maybe, what was a little bit different about me. I started to experience this same-sex attraction towards other boys and I didn't know what to do with that. All my friends were starting to notice girls in different ways and they were being transformed. All of a sudden the girls went from having cooties to being kind of cute, and so I could see that transformation happening in my friends. But I was feeling those feelings for other guys and I was really confused. I didn't know what to do with it. I had enough church background to know that homosexuality was a sin, but I'd grown up in some very kind of self-righteous, legalistic church backgrounds where the only time I heard it talked about was with the attitude that's the one unforgivable sin. And so just the fact that I had these feelings consumed me with shame and guilt and as time went on, like any sin issue does it just kind of snowballs in your heart and it builds and grows.
Speaker 2:And when I was 13, I decided I have to tell someone, and my family had given up on church. But I was going to youth group and so I decided that maybe I should tell a youth leader about what's going on. But before I had the courage to do that, one night a youth group was a pivotal moment in my life where the youth pastor from the pulpit said to the entire group he said I wish all homosexuals would die. And you know that just felt like a knife to my chest. I remember sitting there thinking that's me, that's me who he's talking about, that's me, that's me who he's talking about. And so I actually went home that night as a just a confused, hurting 13 year old and I loaded a gun, because we're in Nebraska, so everyone had guns in their house, and so I loaded a gun and, uh, I was going to end my life because I thought, well, god wants all homosexuals to die. And thankfully, before I pushed the trigger on the gun, I heard my mom walk in the front door and so I kind of came to my senses, jolted myself out of it and hurried and put the gun underneath my bed before she found anything, and so I obviously didn't end my life that night. But that was just the start of a downward spiral where I didn't trust Christians, I didn't go back to church, I didn't go back to youth group. I started to become convinced I guess I have to try even harder to hide this and I have to put on an image for everyone and so I became very good at doing that.
Speaker 2:At the same time, this attraction was growing and building, and it was soon after that incident of youth group that I discovered online porn for the first time. So this was over 20 years ago now, so internet was a brand new thing. Probably a lot of our younger listeners can't understand internet not being a thing, but we had the computer in my bedroom with a dial of internet that made the horrible noise in your ear, and I remember the first time I discovered gay pornography for the first time. I was instantly hooked, and part of it was I desperately wanted to belong. I wanted to be understood by someone, and here was this place where there's people who had the same feelings as me. They had the same desires. I felt like I was one of them, and the only place it seemed like I could have that feeling of belonging was in this online world of darkness.
Speaker 2:So, as my pornography addiction grew, just like many people with pornography, you want to experience what you're seeing on the screen, and so I started to experiment with sexual encounters with other guys and kind of relationships. It was all underground Because 20 years ago our world was so much different, especially small town Nebraska. But it was there and it was so easy to find in all these internet chat rooms and I would, even as a 14-year-old, 15-year-old, many times be with much older men willing to pay me for it, many times be with much older men willing to pay me for it, and that happens everywhere, so much more than anyone would imagine. But I was so desperate to belong, to feel valuable, to feel wanted by someone, to feel this emotional connection with a man. Men seemed to be really intriguing to me. I was curious about them, I wanted to connect with them so deeply because I didn't quite feel like I was one of them and so.
Speaker 2:But I was intrigued by them and so this sexual connection and relational connection was a way to have that deep connection that my heart just craved so deeply, and I was wrestling with spiritual aspects of it too, because you know, I'd grown up believing that homosexuality is a sin, and so what am I supposed to do with that? And I was kind of on this pendulum back and forth with God and say, all right, god, I guess you can't love me like this. So I guess I have to fix myself. And so I'd try to do that I would walk away from the pornography and the sexual encounters and everything. And so I try to do that. I would walk away from the pornography and the sexual encounters and everything. And anyone who has dealt with sin issues, who's tried to deal with that under your own power and strength, you know how that goes. It lasted for about 46 minutes on average, and then you just give in and give up. And then I guess that's the way I am.
Speaker 2:And culture was talking about these issues a lot more and saying if you have same-sex attraction, you're just gay and that's who you have to be. You need to accept it, embrace it. You're just born that way, and so that's where I was when I graduated from high school. I just became convinced that I guess I'm just born this way. It feels like I'm just born this way, even though I don't believe that.
Speaker 2:Now, that's the way it felt, that's what society was saying. That seemed to be my experience, so I just believe that. So I was just trying to accept my identity as I'm gay and that's who I have to be, and I always hate to say this to Christians because I hate that this was my reality, but my reality at that point was that the gay community was much more loving than the Christian community, and so the gay community was where I could go to have acceptance and belonging and to be loved, and so yet the Christian community was so painful, and so, you know, I was just running into the arms of that world because that's where I could find some acceptance and love.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and so, brady, you're talking there, man, and I'm thinking for those people listening that maybe can't relate to some of your testimony. If you took out what you're talking about with same-sex attraction or attraction to other guys, you know everybody has bent toward attraction towards something, whatever the sin might be, whether it's. You know whether it's arrogance, narcissism, or if it's just lying, stealing drugs, I mean, my background is more dealing with that area. But the community I ended up in too, was very, very accepting, because they don't want anybody there that's judgmental, so nobody judges anything, you know, so that you feel very welcome at first it draws you in and you become part of this culture, and then that culture kind of consumes you to the point to where you're not getting any meaning out of it, you're not getting any true satisfaction out of it. It's just more of a cycle. So it sounds like what I'm hearing man is, I'm hearing you say you had cycles of sin, cycles of trying to get out of it, cycles of being angry at God, and then you know you've got these cycles of, you know, trying to find satisfaction in this community, and so it's.
Speaker 3:You know, it's just like for every human being out there, right, we are all born away from God and so, whether you want to say, yeah, I have proclivity toward this bent or that bent, absolutely, you know we're all born away from the Lord. So what we need to do is get back to the Lord, and I know your testimony deals a lot with that, and I know we had a list of questions to go through, but one of the things I was thinking about as you were talking, if it's okay, kyle through, but, um, one of the things I was thinking about as you were talking, if it's okay, kyle, I just want to kind of ask if you could address this brady now, because I'm sure you run into this a lot. Well, hey man, I'm just born that way and that's the way god made me. Now, even if you're not a christian, I know people.
Speaker 3:You know, generally speaking, unless you're, you know, professing atheist, you would say that there is a god. Now, the atheist, my argument would always be you'd have to be God to know there is no God. So they're ultimately saying they're God, but we all believe there's some kind of God out there. So if somebody says to you hey man, this is how God made me, I just need to embrace it? How do you address it? I'm sure you've heard it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I get that question all the time and you know I'll at some point finish. We'll finish the rest of my story where, you know, actually came to know Christ and God led me away from it. But that's a great question to interject into there, because that's what the world says, and so we hear that statement all the time. It's like, well, they're just, they're just born with it.
Speaker 2:And when people ask me that, I have a couple of different answers for them because it's complicated. So for one thing, I say that it doesn't really matter, because we're all born into sin and none of us were born right the first time. So that's why we have to be born again and so in that aspect it doesn't matter. So, for the sake of evangelism, for the sake of coming to know Jesus and surrendering, it doesn't matter if we're born with same-sex attraction or not. We can still surrender to Jesus and we can live a different life with the power of the Holy Spirit. So I don't argue with a non-believer about whether or not they were born with it or not, which there's actually no science that shows that people are born with same-sex attraction. I think that there's different personalities that are more inclined, that are more likely have their heart twisted in that direction and I might have one of those personalities in the way that my heart responded to my circumstances. But there's no science that shows that people are born gay. It's just like. It's an assumption that people make, and I understand the assumption because I know what it feels like to feel like I'm just born this way, like this is just who I am, to the core of me.
Speaker 2:I do think that where it matters is for the sake of discipleship, because the mistake I see a lot of Christians make is believing. Well, I know Jesus now, but I was just born with these attractions. It's like no, this is the result of our heart twisting something. So God wants to untwist that through discipleship over the course of our lifetime. And we have to be very cautious with that because there's some unhealthy aspects in Christian culture of like pray away the gay, you should instantly, the struggle should go away if you have enough faith. It's like no, that's not the way discipleship usually works. It's a lifelong process. So we have to have realistic expectations.
Speaker 2:At the same time, we should be moving away from what our hearts have distorted in the flesh, and so we should be spending our lifetime being discipled, letting God illuminate areas of our hearts that reveal the lies that we had believed, that had led us to that place. We see that in Romans 1. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped creation. So the Creator, that led them to homosexuality. So God, through His grace, reveals those lies that we had believed. So it's important that, as disciples, we're open to letting God untwist what our hearts have twisted, and I think that that brings us to the conclusion that this isn't natural, normal, the way that I was born, this is my heart seeking something that it shouldn't be, and God, through his grace, wants to untwist that through my lifetime. And it might not be completed on this side of the cross, but we should be moving in that direction. And so that's a long answer to the simple question of am I born that way or not?
Speaker 2:But one area I always caution Christians when I answer that question is we are the king of false dichotomies, and not only Christians but the whole world, and we have everything on one extreme or another. But many times I hear Christians say something like well, are people born gay or is it a choice? And I cringe at that because like, oh man, it doesn't have to be one extreme or another. It's like I don't believe that I was born gay. I see now, after I've come to know Christ, how my heart was responding to my circumstances and turning to a certain group of people to try to find my hope and my value, my wholeness, and so I don't believe I was born that way. Yet I didn't choose it. I didn't just wake up one day and say, hey, I'm going to be attracted to men today.
Speaker 2:And I know that sexual aspects started when I went through puberty. But now I can look back and see, like when I was five years old, six years old, seven years old, being very hurt and wounded by men in my life and this kind of gap developing between me and men, and me rejecting masculinity because masculinity had been used to hurt me. And then so there's this gap that was developing. And then puberty hits and your heart is wanting to close this gap, and so it turns those feelings sexual. And so it's like I didn't wake up one day as a five-year-old boy and say, hey, I'm going to be really wounded by my father today and I'm going to internalize that and I'm going to reject manhood. And then, you know, when I turn 11 and go through puberty, I'm going to sexualize those feelings.
Speaker 2:I didn't consciously choose that and yet over you know, a decade, then I did make choices to look at pornography, to hook up with other men, to pursue relationships. I made choices that further cemented those feelings in. And so we have to be careful and not oversimplify. And the false dichotomy is of they're either born that way or they chose. It is a false dichotomy. That way oversimplifies these complex issues.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's two sides of the coin here, because for the non-believer, they think, because they're born one way, that that's just the right way to go. These are the conditions that are inside of me. We had Robbie L year on one time.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, he talked a lot about desires and he talked about how we have desires in us that are good, but we are bent and we lean the wrong direction and we think the desires are the fulfillment of things. We find satisfaction in the desires. God says give me the desires of your heart, you the desires of your heart, you know. So, um, at at the end of the day, I think summarizing what you're saying is we are born incorrect and I'm not the, I'm not the king of analogies. My wife will tell you I'm not good at them. So take it for what it is and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong. But the way I kind of see it, we are not Calvinist. So we, we, you know when I say that we're born. We are born dead, but it doesn't mean that we're unable to choose it. The, the understanding is that we have these, we're born with these desires, but we don't understand because our relationship is dead between us and Christ. We no longer have a relationship with him, as Adam walked in the in the garden with him. And so we have desires, but we don't know how to hone them in because A we don't have the Holy Spirit, we are not filled and indwelt by the Holy Spirit and our relationship with the one true God is broken. So these desires are just like they're broken radars we don't know how to direct them and lead them in the right way, but we have the moral compass. We have God's laws written on our heart and so we work through these things and God is gracious to minister to us. And I'm sure you can, you can resonate with that, with being raised in a Christian home and you're, you're working. I was younger because of lifestyles and things that were around me since I was born. I mean, it's just what was around my life. But I had a choice to to say whether I wanted to do these things or not, and the analogy kind of is like this cancer inside of us. You know we could, you can have a kid born with a cancer and if the world was right that you're born the way it is and accept it, why are we telling kids to go get cancer removed? Why do we have St Jude's Hospital where they're specializing in removing cancer for children? It's because we know that that cancer is wrong and that they were born with a nature that came from the fall of man. I mean cancer is evil and it's's destructive and it's deteriorating the body. So in a sense, yeah, we are born incorrect, but I get that same. And I want to flip this on the Christians.
Speaker 1:The other side of that coin is, not only are unbelievers using that as an excuse, but the Christians are often saying that ones that are born again, ones that are regenerated, ones that do have the living God inside of them, they say, well, I'm just a wild man and I don't know how to tame my tongue. I'm like well, I'm pretty sure the scriptures talk about that in James, how we're called to be slow to speak and tame that tongue we are often defaulting to. Well, it's just how I was born, I'm always going to be this way. I mean, I could tell you I hated people before Christ. I couldn't look you in the eyes, I refused to have a conversation with you, and God totally changed my heart when I came to him.
Speaker 1:Now I love talking to people. I always want to evangelize. I'm out on the street with Flynn and my wife and we want to reach people. That's not me, that's the Lord that changed my heart, and the sooner we all realize that man, we will see a more fundamental discipleship where we're like oh, this is actually the Lord making us and refining us and equipping us, because we are his worksmanship. It's not of our own doing, and so that's a beautiful hope, right? I think that's what you're talking about. That's the hope that we have in Christ. He gives us beautiful desires.
Speaker 2:Yes, Many times I complain to my wife about things that I'm lacking, like discipline, which is why I'm trying to lose like 40 pounds because of lack of discipline.
Speaker 1:It's like we'll hold each other accountable. Yes, that'd be great.
Speaker 2:And it's like, oh, I wish I had discipline. And she's like, well, it is a fruit of the spirit, so it's definitely possible. It's like, oh, yes, like God does redeem and transform. And you know, I think it's amazing that I get up in front of people and talk. You know I do 40 to 60 speaking engagements a year. I was terrified of speaking in front of people. In fact, I had 12 years of speech therapy because I couldn't hardly talk. And when I was in grade school I couldn't talk, no one could understand me, and I was in speech therapy all the time to learn how to pronunciate and process sounds right. And I always joked that I couldn't even learn English and I grew up in America because I just couldn't talk. And so the Lord transforms us and renews us and restores us. God is so good.
Speaker 3:I love how the Lord takes. He says I think I'm going to take this guy who struggles with speaking and I'll have him speak 40 times a year, I think so often we're all looking for. We've heard it so many times how do I get into ministry, how do I do this, how do I do that? And I'm thinking it's really not about any of that, it's just about loving the Lord and speaking the truth and going wherever he sends you, whether it's in front of a million people or in front of two, or in front of one or just in front of him, you know. But why don't we at this point? Because we kind of interrupted I wanted to interject at that point, brady just because I think a lot of people often wonder okay, the issue of whether I'm born that way or not, and I really do think the world and the enemy wants us to believe that.
Speaker 3:I think part of the package of the lie that the enemy has for us is you're just always going to be this way.
Speaker 3:And it's really to do two things Number one, to keep us away from the Lord, to keep us running in the direction that we were going, and number two, to produce the fruit of that is hopelessness and despair and just all of this, just darkness, like where you were at at the young, you know, young teenager, just hopeless, and then that that continuing to grow, and then you start finding your hope, trying to find hope other places instead of Christ.
Speaker 3:So he wants that. So the world's message is you are who you are, just you know. Be the best you that you could be, you know, and it's like, no, that's not. That's not the message that God has for us. He's our creator, he's the one who knows so. So I think I think that's just a good reminder for all of us, no matter where we're at with with the Lord, where we're at with our sin, where we're at with sanctification. It doesn't have to be the way it is. It might feel like you can't change whether it's pornography, homosexuality, whether it's just drugs, whether it's just being mean in your family, being self-centered. Sometimes we struggle.
Speaker 2:And man it just feels like it's never, going to change Anger our tongue and we can become masters of just controlling our environment enough so that our sin isn't revealed. And so it's like, well, I'm going to take these off a relationship with my family who I don't like and they're toxic, which is we hear way too much. It's like, okay, then my heart's not revealed, and so we're so good at managing our circumstances and our environment so that what is actually going on in our heart isn't revealed to the depth that it would be otherwise revealed to the depth that it would be otherwise.
Speaker 3:And often God uses our circumstances and the tough circumstances in our lives to refine us.
Speaker 3:And we spend a lifetime avoiding it through medication, through just manipulation, through control, and what we're doing is we're really cutting ourselves off from the refinement and the humility that God wants to produce in us and it's really only then that he can shine through.
Speaker 3:So we are in a culture, you know, post, I think, really a post postmodern culture, that says, you know, hey, look, I'm going to control my environment, I don't want anything tough, I want only comfortable things, only what's right for me, whatever feels good, do it and believe it. And you know, we're just in a world now that's just telling us that we don't have to go through tough times. And really, christianity, what you're talking about, it's a day-to-day trench environment, sometimes with our emotions and our feelings and our desires, and taking it to the cross, maybe moment by moment. But at this point can you pick up where you left off in your testimony? Because I think I heard your testimony when Kyle sent me that link and to me it was such a blessing to hear the faithfulness of God through followers of him. Could you share kind of that last chunk of your testimony, brady, because it didn't end there.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so I went off to college determined that I just this is a chance to start a new life of living up the gay life that you know it's accepted on college campuses, even though I went to a small college in Nebraska where it's still pretty underground. It's like, well, this is my chance, get away from all these small town people. And I can, I can be happy there living the gay life. And I pulled up to campus and to pull up to the dorms for the very first time, to unload and move into the dorm rooms, and there's a group of guys standing there who offered to help me unload my stuff and I thought that was the most amazing thing ever. And it was the typical church college freshmen move-in outreach that every church in a college town does to help the freshmen move in. And so it was great. And they invited me to a ministry I met on Wednesday nights. So I actually went that first Wednesday night.
Speaker 2:I wasn't walking with God. I was pretty angry towards God and towards Christians and what kept going through, the question I kept asking at that point in life, was how could a loving God create me in a way that's going to condemn me to hell? Because I felt like I was just made this way and then I've told that I'm going to hell for it. So how can a loving God do that? And the only answers I could come up to to answer that question were either that God is not a loving God or there's no God at all. And yet I still went to this ministry on Wednesday night because they were inviting me and they'd shown me kindness and at that point in our culture it's still kind of socially advantageous for people to think that you're a Christian. Now that's changed a lot, but at that time it was kind of this cultural Christianity where you're looked upon highly if people think that you're a Christian. So I went the first Wednesday night. I'm sure it was great. I don't remember what they talked about. I'm sure the gospel was preached, but at that point I was so hard-hearted and bitter that anytime I heard the gospel I thought, oh, that doesn't apply to me. I'm too far gone, god can't love me. I've already tried so hard and it's been so painful to go through that process of trying and fighting and working to be acceptable to God and so I just can't go there.
Speaker 2:But I kept going on Wednesday nights because of the relationships I built there, these upperclassmen men who were just investing in me. They were pursuing me, they were loving me, they were giving me a community where I could belong, which is something that I had craved so deeply, and I was finding that, on one hand, in the LGBTQ community. But then this group of Christian guys was pursuing me and giving me a community where I could belong, and they would ask me questions about my life, and I had enough Sunday school background to regurgitate the answers I thought they wanted to hear. But they knew that something wasn't adding up. They could tell my life wasn't bearing fruit, but they continued to pursue me and love me and God was using them to soften my heart. God was using them to show me that he loves me. He was using them to show me what it looks like to be a follower of Jesus, because these weren't just like the Christians I had grown up with, who put on a mask and pretended like life was perfect and okay, but they were actually so real and humble and authentic and open about their own sin struggles. But they weren't just authentic for the sake of authenticity. They're authentic for the sake of repentance, and so I could see Jesus changing them from the inside out, and I was intrigued by that because I'd never seen that up close before. And they just they kept pursuing me, including me, and God was using it in remarkable ways to show me a different picture of Christianity and who he is.
Speaker 2:Then, at the same time, I was getting more and more involved in the LGBTQ community on campus. It's kind of something secret, not really out publicly relationships with other men, and I kept pursuing it and part of it felt great. I remember waking up in the morning sometimes thinking I can't go the rest of my day without fulfilling these desires, and so I'd find a way to do that and it was pretty easy to do with the you know invention of the internet, and part of it felt great. But then I just kept ending every relationship more and more heartbroken, and what that world would tell you is that, well, you just need more of it. You need more of the affirmation, more freedom, more sexual encounters, you need more of everything and that will finally make you satisfied. But the more I had of it, the more I was just being left kind of exhausted. It was kind of like the hamster wheel. Picture the hamster on the wheel. It's just going faster and faster and it's just exhausted. And that's where I felt like I was is absolutely exhausted.
Speaker 2:And after my sophomore year I finally came to a place where I was starting to acknowledge that this isn't doing for my soul what it promised to do for my soul. It's not making me feel loved the way it's supposed to make me feel loved. Why am I not feeling loved? Isn't that the whole purpose of this is to be loved? And I'm not feeling loved. But I didn't know where I was supposed to go because I really put all my hope in the promise that that life will make me happy and I always tell people that coming out of the closet for most people cliff kind of daydreaming, contemplating what will it be like, what will I experience, what will people think of me, how will my family respond, how will everyone respond?
Speaker 2:And then you finally do it and you step off the cliff and it feels like freedom for a while. It feels like this rush, but then it feels like it's impossible to go back now because I'm finally experiencing this freedom that I was told I needed, and to go back and say that I was wrong would be like that those entire 10 years leading up to taking that step would have been in vain. All the suffering and wrestling coming to the place of finally that step would have been in vain. All the suffering and wrestling coming to the place of finally accepting it would have been for nothing. So there's no going back now, and I think that leads to a lot of hard heartedness and people who have taken the step to so-called come out as gay. It's like it's stepping off this cliff and there's no going back.
Speaker 2:But here I was. It felt like I was crashing at the bottom and at the same time, I had these Christian friends who are loving me, and I was. I was just so intrigued by that and it felt like I'm not feeling loved by all these you know, guys I'm hooking up with. It seems like I'm just working harder and harder to try to earn this love from people and this isn't the way it's supposed to be. And finally, I was at a place of such deep depression and having suicidal thoughts, and so I thought the one thing I put my hope in is failing me. So where can I actually have any hope? Is there any hope for this life?
Speaker 2:And I was contemplating suicide and I didn't know what I was going to do, and I decided that, before I entered my life, I wanted to tell one of my Christian friends about the life I was living, because I thought I'd done a pretty good job of keeping it a secret. No, I wasn't publicly out to that group of friends, and so I didn't think that they knew anything. And what was going through my mind was that I'm going to tell my friends, and when they reject me, that's going to be the proof that they don't actually love me. They love the person they think I am. They love the image I've portrayed to them. But if they knew what was going on inside of me, there's no way that my Christian friends would still love me. And so I finally got up the courage.
Speaker 2:I told my friend, lex, and he was one of the guys involved in the campus ministry. I'll never forget this moment. We're in my stepdad's house and I had a gun loaded in my room and I said when he rejects me, that's just going to be the affirmation I need that no one loves me and I'm going to end my life. Well, I'm still standing here today. So obviously, lex didn't reject me. Instead, he came across the room, gave me this big hug and said hey, man, I love you. Your sin is no better or worse than my sin, and I don't know what it's going to look like, but it's going to be okay because God's grace is sufficient and we're going to get through this together. Yeah, praise God, praise the Lord.
Speaker 2:And I've told that story about Lex hundreds of times, and it was just a moment that God completely softened my heart and I couldn't get that out of my mind For three days. What I kept thinking was that can't be Lex who loves me. That has to be the Jesus I see in him who loves me. Because I could see Jesus at work in his life. And he took me to church that weekend church in small town, nebraska and great church. And the message was on God's grace. And for the first time I became convinced that I think that God's grace applies to me too. I think that it's sufficient for me. Me too, I think that it's sufficient for me. And for the first time I started to actually believe that I think that God's grace is for me too. I think that God can still love me despite this life I've been living. And so, because for the first time I became convinced of that I finally surrendered my life to Jesus for the first time.
Speaker 2:June 21st 2006,. I fell to my knees and surrendered to Christ and you know, I'd always called myself. Well, most of the time I called myself a Christian. I'd kind of given up on that the last couple of years of my, you know, when I was in college. But so many times I called myself a Christian when I was in high school I'd done all the right things I prayed, I prayed, I prayed, I begged God, just to take it away.
Speaker 2:But one of the things I realized was that my faith had just been my demands on God. It had been my own terms and conditions, me telling God all right, god, I'll follow you, but I demand that you take away my attraction towards men. All right, god, I'll follow you, but I demand that you take away my attraction towards men, that you make me attracted to women, that you give me a big house and a white picket fence and the whole American dream. That's what my demand is. But for the first time I was a place of surrender where I said all right, god, I don't care what it takes, I don't care who I have to tell, I don't care what I have to do, I don't care what it costs me. I trust that you love me and that love is enough, and I surrender everything to you. And that's the moment that I believe I truly gave my life to Jesus, because I was at a place to surrender and I believe that his grace was sufficient for me too.
Speaker 1:Man, there's so much that I resonate with your testimony, totally on a different spectrum. But I mean, god ministers through those situations and I'm so, I'm so grateful to see cause you started out with pointing out the hypocrisy or the incorrect message from the Christian church. You know, and um, giving the benefit of the doubt. I don't know the church and their heart of their intent, of the things that they were trying to tell you. I know that my wife and Flynn and I, we have preached at the Super Bowl when it's here in Arizona and the Westboro Baptist Church was out there at the same time as us, if you're familiar with the Westboro Baptist, Church they're quite aggressive and they have the signs that say God hates homosexuals, and they have quite vulgar things.
Speaker 1:And so, man, when they were out there, the cops actually had them fenced in because they were going to get jumped. You know, like people are just very hostile towards the way that they approach sharing, and so we stood right outside their fence and there were people in lines going flocks by, and the best way to minister to them was saying we're not with them. We have the message of hope. They're telling you half truth, because the fact of the matter is God hates. I mean we can look at the scriptures. I mean you've pointed it out in your video several times when you look at 1 Corinthians 6, like it has a lot of other things it identifies before it even gets to sexual immorality. I mean we are all falling short on this list of things that are destructive and sending us to hell. And John 3 is pretty clear we go to hell because of our disbelief and not believing in the sun. It's not because, you know, it's not because of an individual sin. It's because we cling to self-idolization and we are committed.
Speaker 1:That's one thing that I really want to highlight that you focused on and I think it may be good for the viewers, because I have seen the destructiveness of pride and I'm not saying that ironically or trying to be cliche because of Pride Month, shay, because of Pride Month, it really does hone in on the heart of the matter that it is my identity, that I am consumed with the fact that this is who I am, this persona, this character, and if I don't give into it then it must not be me. And so you were constantly chasing this identity, this affirmation, this community, and I don't know that lifestyle in that community, but I do know a really close father figure of mine. He struggled with diabetes. He struggled with lots of pride in an arrogant sense, really good man in my life, but he got to a really hard point in his life where he did commit suicide but he had threatened himself for he had threatened his family for hours I mean we're talking eight hours and it came to a point where he I remember talking to him on the phone where he was committed that because he was surrounded by the police officers I'm not giving the whole context, but there were police outside his house and he was just like.
Speaker 1:I have no other choice. This is what I got to go through with, and I feel like that's what most people are doing, whether homosexual or whatever the sin is, because they think they're so rooted into this characterization of who they are that they have to go through with it, otherwise everyone's going to call them out. For you know, how dare you not be who you are, how dare you disregard that, and is that something that you think that that's pretty common in this community? Do you think that was yourself?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely, and we live in a culture where I love Carl Truman he does a lot of work in this area where our culture believes the foundation of our humanity is expressing whatever is inside of ourselves. So, whatever we're feeling, the more we express it, the more human we are, and that's one of the big whys that we believe. And so, really at the heart of Pride Month, what I see is this doubling down on I am my own God and I'm going to celebrate me being God, and I'm going to celebrate me being God, and that's at the heart of what I see all month long in pride is this celebration of I'm going to be my own God. I'm going to define myself. I'm defined by whatever my heart is feeling instead of being defined by who Christ made me to be. And so our identity should be rooted in something so much greater than our own fickle hearts, because our hearts are deceitful.
Speaker 2:But, according to the world, our heart is where we get our humanity, and whatever we're feeling in the moment defines us and makes us more human, and that's such a lie that the world buys into. And then we see, and those people, it's like their heart changes so quickly and so it's like their whole identity. Their life is built on such shifting sand because it's not a firm foundation. And that's where I did a response video the other day with this girl talking about how your gender can change. With the seasons. You might have a different gender in the fall Fluid gender yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is that this is such shifting sand that something as intricate and to the core of who God made you to be is actually based on something so temporary as what you're feeling in this season, and that is what is defining your gender, instead of something that God made in you that can never change because he made it good and it's like that's such a much better place to have our hope and to have our identity. But we see during Pride Month that I am my own God and we celebrate that. We double down on that and because of our hearts are deceitful, that can come out in so many different ways and therefore I define my feelings, define who I am and what I do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, flynn, I want to bring up one thing. Just before we I know I really want to we were talking about getting into 2 Corinthians five and I think that really highlights every listener kind of the direction that we could go with this and and the hope that we have. This is something that just came up in my head because you were talking a lot about satisfaction and you were talking about just kind of like that quench that you always like the, the thirst, not the quenching, but you had this thirst of like nonstop. Just I've got to satisfy this desire and like I'll do what it takes, I'll get on the internet and this is something that I've got to continually do and I'm sure that's a temptation. Whatever the sin is that people are watching right now, they just feel like this, like urging constant, devastating emotion, and it's because the world does not sell satisfaction. We've talked about that on this a lot, but I'm thinking about 1 John, 2, 2.
Speaker 1:This was a game changer verse for me when I came to the Lord. I remember reading on this. It says and he himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world, which means and for those that are watching that have no idea that's a huge Bible word, right? When you hear that and I remember when I first read that I was like what is propitiation? I couldn't even say it. Propitiation you want to talk about like struggling with the English language, like I'm right there with you, I feel like we're twinsies on that.
Speaker 1:One, buddy, I read that word and I remember listening to a preacher and he explained it to me about how that means the full satisfaction for our sins. So you could read it as he, jesus, he himself, is the full satisfaction for our sins, which means that never-ending thirst that you have. It's because you're not finding. It's like Billy Graham says you have that God-shaped hole in your heart and it will never be fulfilled until you find that full eternal rest in your Savior and that can only come through the one, the true Jesus Christ, messiah.
Speaker 1:That is the only one that can satisfy the soul and that goes for the sinner that's constantly longing for that hope. I mean it's there and it's ready. He's knocking on the door and I'm telling you right now. I hear Brady saying it. I know Flynn could tell you through his testimony and every Christian that's watching here will share with you if they're faithful, to explain the truth. You know if you're longing for this like just satisfaction, you will find it in Christ, and so search for him with all your heart and you will find him. That is a promise a hundred percent guaranteed every time he promises to be there for it. So I just felt compelled to kind of share that with as well.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so I think. Why don't I share just a little bit about how God really then led me away and ended up transforming my heart over the next few months and years, and now it's been almost two decades, which seems crazy, like I'm getting old and losing, uh, and losing hair, and so you guys know how that goes. Uh, yes. And so you know that summer I came to know Jesus, and I think the picture people have in their mind of those moments is like oh, my issues are gone. You know, my temptations are gone. Life is perfect now, and we all know that life as a Christian can still be hard. I was on fire for Jesus. I was convinced that he loves me. I told the rest of my Christian community. They responded with just as much love and grace as Lex had, which was really remarkable, because it's like this was 20 years ago, almost in small town, nebraska.
Speaker 2:These guys knew nothing about sexuality. They didn't know anyone else who was gay. It was not a public thing, and yet what they did know is that God's word has the answers for everything in life, and so they were reading scripture with me, they were praying with me, they were praying with me, they were encouraging me and those first few months I had a lot of stuff built up that I really needed to share a lot of dysfunction, a lot of hurt, a lot of pain and there was a whole lot of emotional vomiting going on to those friends. And so most of us have had a friend like that. If not, we've been that friend and they listened and they love me and they encouraged me so much and they're still struggling because I still had a lot of these feelings towards men. And so what was I going to do with that? And I was asking questions like well, maybe I can go on and continue to live as gay and, you know, maybe it'll be different now that I know Jesus, my savior, is my ultimate fulfillment. Now maybe I could be happy living that life.
Speaker 2:But then these guys were reading with me scripture and as I look through scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, I look how God created humans and what he created us for and what he created marriage for. And I was reading passages like in first Peter where it says be holy as I am holy, and I couldn't find any justification to continue to live that life. And so by the end of the summer I was convinced I have to walk away from homosexuality. This isn't who I am. This isn't who God created me to be. But how was I going to do that? Because I tried under my own power. But now I had the Holy Spirit in me for the first time and I became convinced I can live a different life. And 1 Corinthians 6, verses 9 and 10, talks about a whole list of sins and including homosexuality, and it seemed like those two verses were the only ones I'd heard growing up and it was only pointed towards the homosexual community. Of course it wasn't about the greedy or drunk lords or swindlers or all those things.
Speaker 2:It was always towards the homosexuals. But for some reason I'd never heard verse 11. And either it was never read with the rest of the passage or I was just too hard-hearted to hear it. But verse 11 says, and such were some of you but you are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified in the name of the Lord, jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. And for the first time I had hope. I realized oh man, that's what they were, but they're no longer that in past tense, and I had hope that I could live a different life. So for the first time I had this hope and by the end of the summer I'd walked away from the LGBTQ community and sexual encounters and I was getting control over my pornography addiction for the first time and I was living such a different life.
Speaker 2:But I always want to be clear about the transformation that I had in my life that summer, because I always feel like the goal that Christians have for people like me is that to convince us to go from gay to straight. It's like right, that's what we want. It's like I get those questions how do I convince this person that my nephew that being gay is wrong and I want him to be straight. I hear that from parents all the time. But my transformation wasn't from gay to straight. My transformation was from lost to saved, and so it's like that was so remarkable that God actually stepped into my soul and he rescued me for an eternity.
Speaker 2:And it was out of that transformation that I started to live a different life, because I was growing my relationship with Jesus. I was finding the satisfaction in him, like you talked about with propitiation, and it's like I was being fully satisfied with Christ. So I don't need that anymore. I don't need that. I don't have to be controlled by it. I have hope for the first time that I can live a different life, and now I have the power of the Holy Spirit in me, which I didn't have as a non-believer.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 3:Yep, totally Well. Here's what I'm wondering too. Well, kyle, why don't you read the second Corinthians verse, because you referenced it before, but I don't know if we read that one. I know, brady, you talked about there with chapter 6. Was that 1 Corinthians you referenced there?
Speaker 2:Brady, yes, that's 1 Corinthians chapter 6.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that one. I know that verse 11 is really where the hope is at. That's the whole thrust of that chapter. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3:That's what you were, that's what we were, but when we're born again, God doesn't see us that way. We don't have to walk In Romans. It talks about the motions of sin. We do not have to walk anymore in those motions, in those patterns. But in 2 Corinthians, as I was hearing your testimony and talking to Kyle about it too, this one came to my mind. I know to his too, Kyle, why don't you go ahead and read it?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So in 2 Corinthians 5, starting at 14, it says for the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus that if one died for all, then all died and he died for all. That those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for him, who died for them and rose again. Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh, even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know him thus. No to the flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation and old things have passed away. Behold, all things have become new. Now, all things are of God and has reconciled us to himself through Jesus. Christ has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and committed to us the word of reconciliation. It's a mouthful, it's all yours, Flynn.
Speaker 3:No, that's great. I'm going to read those last two verses. I can't help it, buddy, this is just I'm compelled man. Verse 20, it says Now, then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us. We implore you I mean, just think of those words he's using Implore you on Christ's behalf. Be reconciled to God. That's what you're talking about, brady.
Speaker 3:It's not about from gay to straight. It's not about drinking to non-drinking. It's not about lustful life to non-lustful life or pornography to non-pornography. Those are all the fruits of what really needs to happen and that's being reconciled to God here. And then verse 21,. For he made him that's Jesus, who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in him. And this, to me, is just something, even, as you know, as believers who are very familiar perhaps with this chapter just going through it now, it just reminds me. I need to get back to this over and over and over, just to remind myself. I'm an ambassador of Christ and we we were going to have on somebody and hopefully we can still get them on a little bit later but they were.
Speaker 3:They have a whole teaching on the ambassador of Christ's message and that's what we are, these Christians. In your little town of Nebraska you said, well, they didn't know about sexuality, but you know what. They knew the God who did, does. They know the God who does. And so I think we've made it so complicated with some of the psychology and the other things behind things. Yeah, okay, it might be good to know a thing or two about a thing or two, but when it all boils down to it, god's Word is sufficient. So if we know God's Word, then we are equipped to handle 99.99999% of what's going on in most people's lives. And if we're not equipped, my goodness, god will equip us.
Speaker 3:And if we have to run, if we, if we have to run first to the world to get equipped for soul issues, I think I think we're doing, doing the church and believers a disservice for sure. That's why we that's part of why we're here as a ministry, and I know that's why you're there too is just simply, we're all saying the same thing Go back to Jesus man, run to his word, trust his word, stop trusting in this world, and you will find hope. And I love that. That first verse reminded me there that we read but the love of Christ compels us. The love of Christ is what I heard in your testimony was, I think, of Romans 2,. I think what is it in chapter 2, maybe how the goodness of God led us to repentance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it leads me to repentance, and I love that passage.
Speaker 2:Oh go ahead, go ahead, no, no. I love in that passage that Christ died for all and so I really pray that as we go through Pride Month and we can get so frustrated that when we see these people posting and we see the depravity that, like man, like Christ died for that person and there's hope for that person. And I think that sometimes we don't interact with people expecting that there is hope in Christ for this person and we think that with these issues they're just too far gone and they're beyond hope. And so I often ask Christians and kind of challenge them would you see someone who's living the LGBTQ life now this month, you know, maybe celebrating pride on social media? What is your prayer for them? What are you believing for them? What is it that you're trusting that God can do in their life?
Speaker 2:Because I think a lot of Christians academically would say, oh yeah, I believe that God can transform any life. Academically would say, oh yeah, I believe that God can transform any life, but in their heart they're not actually believing that. For the individuals that they see Maybe it's their nephew who came out as gay, maybe it's their coworker who's gay or transgender, or their neighbor next door who's a same-sex couple. It's like what are you praying for them, what are you believing for them, what is your hope for them? Are you truly believing that God can change their life? And then are you playing your part as the ambassador of Christ in their life? And so I think that would change how we interact and see people, if we truly understood the hope that they can have in Christ.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we have that responsibility and that's one thing that I think we need to recognize for the circumstance regarding these things. I mean the reality is and don't get me wrong, I love street evangelism, I love the opportunities to hit strangers up and talk to them, but the reality is is there are so many people that we have immediate influences in, and I could probably count I think we're up to a handful now in my family with these same situations, whether same sex or transitioning or these different things, and it's a long-term mission field and I'm sure you could probably resonate with that. It's not an immediate one day conversation, it's a long-term living out the sanctified life by the Holy Spirit. And I'll tell you after I mean it's probably going on 10 years with the oldest one that I've been seeing this in our life, being the ones that are always available to them when the hurt and sorrow comes, because the storms come. I mean you were talking about shifting sands. That's literally what Jesus says that you're building your house on the sands and when the storms come, it washes it away and destroys your home. But those that build their house on the rock us as Christians, we that are rooted and grounded in God's word. It's not to say I told you so. It's not to say ha ha, I'm the one that survived the storm. It's the one to say hey, I have a house available for you to come in, and it's rooted on the cornerstone, the chief cornerstone, which is Christ. And I want this is. And they will make those calls, and we have to be wise, a serpent, gentle as doves, and ready to speak. You know we were talking about Colossians four before we hit record. But it says knowing how we ought to answer a man. It says knowing how we ought to answer a man, we need to be steadily available because it may be hurtful.
Speaker 1:I just heard this testimony of someone in our Bible study. This older man he had an adopted son that walked away from the family went through a transitioning we're talking cut out of the life because he thought the parents hated him, because he didn't accept him for who he was. We're going on. Eight or nine years later, he got a phone call literally a month ago and said dad, I miss you, I want to talk to you and I'm detransitioning. Wow, that is reality. I mean, these things don't satisfy.
Speaker 1:And so, for those that are listening, we understand and we are available. I know Brady's available. You can reach out to his ministry and he's a real person, he's not just some YouTube star that doesn't respond to emails. Literally, reach out to us, comment on here, private message us, and we're not here to point a finger. We're here to be available and say hey look, we're beggars too. We're just as hungry as you and we know where the bread is.
Speaker 1:We know where the joy and the strength comes from, and it's not from men, it's not from the temporal things of this world, because the whole ministry once lost. We truly believe that our ministry is rooted on Titus 3.3. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts, but when the kindness and the love of God, our Savior, toward men appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us. That's what we're trying to share and the believers watching this don't forget that. Don't forget where you came from when you're having these conversations, and I really appreciate your heart on that, brady, pointing those things out Absolutely, I like to point out, during.
Speaker 2:Pride Month, that the opposite of pride is humility. I like to point out during Pride Month, that the opposite of pride is humility, and so that should be what we are responding with is humility of. I'm not any better or worse than you. I've just found the living water and I don't have to thirst any longer, not because of anything I did, because of what Christ has done in me. And so we need to respond with humility and love and grace.
Speaker 2:And our response should be one of mourning mourning that people have been deceived, mourning that they have not yet believed in a way that has led them to repentance. And then what is our part in their life? How can we interact with them in a way that's going to further soften their heart and build a relationship so that when their sin does fail them because sin always fails us eventually that we're the person they run to? So you already pointed that out, that this is a long game, and I walk alongside families that have been dealing with this for a decade and they're still mournfully hoping and praying that their child will come to repentance. And it is a long game. And how do I build a relationship so that they'll run to me or they'll remember the truth that I instilled in them when their sin does fail them.
Speaker 3:Yep them when their sin does fail them. Yep, yeah. And I think for those families that are going through those challenges, they are very personal, very, very devastating sometimes and the enemy also, I think, wants to get in there and create hopelessness, even for those believers that are watching family members and loved ones going through that. I'm sure there's guilt and there's other things that probably we all try to put on, but Lord reminds us all we walk by faith, not by sight. So we need to trust in Him. We need to walk in victory. You know the Lord already has the victory on the cross. We simply have to walk in His power and newness of life and often that takes the community, the body, and I mean the times we live.
Speaker 3:It's easy to just I mean, we're a YouTube channel and I know you have a YouTube ministry as well and podcast ministries and other things. So it's easy to do the digital stuff which we do because it's available to us, but there's nothing to replace that one-on-one, that personal time. But there's nothing to replace that one-on-one, that personal time, but also time with the Lord, but also time in his body. Find a good fellowship. I know it might be harder to find these days than other times, but pray for a good fellowship of believers that you can lean on and bear one another's burdens and pray with each other.
Speaker 3:Whether you're going through these things personally or through watching somebody else go through them, I don't forget that part of it. And then the world just has way too many distractions for us. I know a lot of people say, well, sunday's my only relaxing day, sunday's the day I get all my little jobs done or I watch football or whatever, and just don't have time for church. We have time for what we make time for it's priorities, just don't have time for church. We have time for what we make time for, it's priorities, and taking that time off is so important to find a good, godly church that teaches the word of God week by week, and we need to find that fellowship as well.
Speaker 2:A lot of these sin issues come with a lot of burdens to bear and so we need to be willing to bear people's burdens with them.
Speaker 2:And we live such individual lives here in America and that bleeds into the church and so we need to understand that people are running to the gay community because they can find belonging and acceptance and so many times like that life that is 24-7 for them, like that's their community, who they live with and do life with and have fellowship with, and it's like man, like we as Christians should be so much more than that as a sense of belonging. And I love Rosaria Butterfield, who also has a great testimony of leaving the homosexual life. Her book on hospitality, called the Gospel, comes with a House Key and the whole premise is if I'm going to share the gospel with someone, they can be a part of my family and they get a key to my house and I'm going to love them and bear their burdens with them and invite them in, because we don't just hand them the gospel and say, all right, here's the hope, now go do your thing with.
Speaker 3:Jesus, it's like good luck.
Speaker 2:It's like no, come be a part of my life, Live in my house with me if you need to, because you might need some 24 7 community and a family to love you right now. And yeah, yeah, that's what so many lost sinners need especially. And then a new believer who is giving up everything. And I think we need to have compassion towards the lgbtq community when we're calling them for repentance. We're calling them to give up so much and obviously we believe it's worth it. But it's their community, it's their identity, it's the people who they belong with such a deep, deep understanding of each other.
Speaker 2:But our understanding of each other as fellow believers should be so much deeper than that, and I think sometimes we try to push you know, the strugglers off onto like, oh well, here's this guy over there who he left that to so he understands, and it's like no, like you, as their local church should be able to walk alongside them. And I saw in my own life the biggest impact even though it was really refreshing to find some guys who had also struggled the biggest impact on my life through all these years has been just normal, straight guys in the church who love me for who I am, and it's like oh, we don't completely understand what you're dealing with or what your temptations are, but that's okay. Like, come be a part of our community. And we're all men here. And those guys in the church have had by far the biggest impact on me.
Speaker 3:Those guys in the church have had by far the biggest impact on me. Yeah, yeah, I don't think we have to necessarily understand everybody's mindset, everybody's struggles. We're all human, we all struggle, we all are self-centered. So you could say generally, we all can understand one another, the specifics. God might call somebody to get that encouragement. Or sometimes I think and this is one of the questions I wanted to give you, brady, but I don't know if this is the time or not Kyle, did you have something before? I had a question I wanted to ask him really quick.
Speaker 1:Go for it, man. I do have one thing I want to make sure, but we always apply evangelism, so at some point I want to get practical sense.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, evangelism. So at some point I want to get practical sense. But, yeah, go for it, okay. So I was thinking, brady, too, like okay, so let's say I'm in your shoes, so to speak, maybe about 25 years ago and I'm just struggling with all these things, or maybe I just came out of that lifestyle and I'm listening to maybe yourself or other people online, but I don't have a bunch of people around me to encourage me. Are there some practical things other than, obviously, praying, staying in the word? We're talking about that. We're encouraging people to reach out to us. If they want to, we're happy to talk to them. I know you are too, but are there practical things day to day that you found helpful? And I know it's going to be different for different people, but generally speaking, is there anything that you find that you might encourage people with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, gosh, I needed community. So fight for community, fight for relationships, although people are always going to let you down, and I see that as kind of a downfall of guys who are dealing with same-sex attraction. Maybe they've left the homosexual life. So many times we transfer the idols that we have as nonbelievers to idols with inside the church, and so so many times I see guys try to find their hope through men in the church. I'm like I just need loved by them and I need accepted by them, and we should all seek to love and accept other guys.
Speaker 2:But so many times, man, the only person who is not going to fail us is Jesus.
Speaker 2:So other Christians will always fail us, and so if our hope is in them, then we're going to be left disillusioned towards God's people.
Speaker 2:Our hope is in them, then we're going to be left disillusioned towards God's people, and so our hope is in Jesus, and because of that, we can have deep fellowship and community with inside the church, with God's people, and we can love them as they're imperfect, as they love us and our imperfection.
Speaker 2:And so turn to Jesus as the only one who's going to not fail you and not let you down, because he's the only one who will. And then our relationships in the church are worth fighting for and they're worth working through. We hurt each other and we say things that we shouldn't say, and we're going to disappoint each other, and we're not going to perfectly love one another, but fight through that. It's worth it for the sake of community and fellowship with God's people, and rest in the fact that Jesus knows you, jesus understands you, he knows everything about you and he loves you, and and that, uh, that's what, that's the solid foundation we build um our faith on, and then that enables us to love the body of Christ, to love our community, even when they can't fully understand us and when they let us down sometimes too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Good, good reminders, man Very good reminders.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's funny because I I mean, the question I was going to ask is is kind of on the other side of that. It was the exact same framing, but more so from the from the church's perspective is I know the very blatant things that are going wrong in in in the culture today. You know we're embracing these things for the sake of compromise, for the sake of welcoming them into the door, and I don't think that's truly loving, and so I think the question really comes to how can we be clear? The scriptures are clear. We need to let the word really present itself and we just need to give people the word, so people that are watching, and we just need to give people the word, so people that are watching.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry that people have misconstrued what the scriptures say, maybe for the sake of just bridge building or something like that, but the scriptures are clear, and maybe that's a conversation for another time how clear they are. But I think, just for the sake of this conversation, where are we failing? Beside that, what are the things that we're doing that are not loving, scripturally loving, that we are not doing correctly, whether on social media or in our relationships, and what are the things that we could be doing that are more biblically loving, you know, from the Christian side.
Speaker 2:Great question. I think just a practical aspect when we know people who are struggling whether they're believers now and trying to walk with God or they're not believers is focusing on more than just their sexuality. Like someone needs Jesus for way more than their sexuality. That's not who they are, even though they might define themselves by that. Every individual is made in God's image. They're so much more than their sexuality. So I think one of the mistakes we make in trying to reach out to someone is that we think that their sexuality is the only thing that needs fixed, and many times, like we talked about so times, the goal is to try to convince them to be straight. It's like, well, being straight isn't what sends someone to heaven, and so it's knowing Jesus is what sends someone to heaven, and the transformation of their sexuality is going to come as a result of knowing Christ. And so we make the mistake of just focusing on that one issue, when they need Jesus for every area of their life, and many times, as we're in relationship with someone, it might be other areas of their life where they're softened to their need for Jesus first, where there's more open doors. And so you know sometimes you know, I had a parent the other day with a non-believing child who's gay. It's like man, like my child just doesn't want to talk to me and it's like, no, obviously, every time I talk to them, I talk to them about their sexuality because they need to know the truth, right? It's like you don't have to make every conversation about that one sin issue. It's like that's why they don't want to talk to you. It's like I mean like I had another conversation with a mom who daughter is a lesbian, and the mom was like I'm just so frustrated that it's like nothing is changing. And you know, I just spent my daughter's birthday with her and with her, and, of course, every time I'm with her, I tell her that her lifestyle is a sin, because that's the truth. It's like maybe the truth she needed to hear that day was that she's loved. Maybe the truth she needed to hear that day was that you're proud of her. Maybe you could have called out some greatness. She knows what you believe about sexuality and we shouldn't deny the truth.
Speaker 2:But that one aspect of truth doesn't need to be the aspect of truth we share in every single conversation with an unrepentant sinner, and so we have to be wise about what truth do they need to hear on this day? What truth is going to soften their heart? You know, and one of the passages of scripture I go to all the time is Ephesians 4.29, where it says let no corrupting talk come out of your mouth, but only such as is good for building up as fits the occasion, that gives grace to those who hear. And so we need to talk about these issues in a way that gives grace to those who hear. And so we need to talk about these issues in a way that gives grace to those who hear. Then use discernment on what fits the occasion. What communication, what truth do I share at this point, in this moment, that is going to build this person up, that's going to give them hope?
Speaker 2:And I think that if we truly applied that, we'd see that, you know, their sexuality and their behavior is an outward symptom of deeper heart level issues.
Speaker 2:So what are those heart level issues? What lies are they believing? And many times we can focus on those deeper heart level issues and not just the outward symptoms. And that doesn't mean that we ignore the outward symptoms when we have opportunity to talk about it, but we should sometimes focus on, maybe, what are some other areas where they're softened to their need for Jesus. What lies are at the heart of the lifestyle they're living, and we can sometimes speak into that. I see so many people dealing with sexuality where they have sexual abuse in their past, they have insecurities, they have so many lies that they've believed, and so sometimes I can minister to them without talking just about their sexuality and the lifestyle they're living. But what lies have you believed about yourself and about God and about the world? And now let's trade those lies for God's truth. And the uh, the, the sexuality piece is the outward symptom of so many deep heart level lies, and so we can sometimes focus on other areas and not just this one outworking of the many lies that they've believed.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, I mean, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks and I think sometimes we focus too much on the words and the actions instead of recognize it's all stemming and brewing from a bigger issue and something Flynn says a lot that always sticks with me the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart and so that, just that, ever since the first time I've heard him say that, it just like kind of stews in my brain when I'm sitting there thinking about my own personal issues before the Lord, I'm like man, god, you know, it really does just stem down to something that I'm unwilling to surrender to you, and we as Christians really need to be more understanding of how that works with an unbeliever. We are Christians and we struggle with our own sin nature currently. We are Christians and we struggle with our own sin nature currently. And here we are trying to hold the world accountable, making them saying, hey, they need to go live a straight lifestyle and do these things when we're still. You know, it's the whole plank in the eye. It's not saying don't remove the speck out of theirs, but it's saying hey, first take the plank out of yours because you're still struggling with some stuff of theirs, but it's saying, hey, first take the plank out of yours because you're still struggling with some stuff.
Speaker 1:And I think of John 1.14, when you're talking about sharing the whole truth and being wise in how to share. It says that the word became flesh, dwelt among us, beheld his glory. The glory is the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. I mean, jesus was the full image of how to gracefully share, with parables and the message of hope and judgment all packed in together. And we have a spirit and we have that same power of his resurrection inside of us. So the more we take heed and listen to him, we can not have to. You know, sometimes quiet is good. You know, it actually settles things. My wife encourages me that. You know, letting a somber silence in the room and thinking about what am I going to say next instead of just jumping straight to the first thing. You know that usually gets me in trouble.
Speaker 2:And we're so bad about that on the Internet and we can have a whole conversation on social media. I think in Pride Month it's like, maybe be silent on social media this month would be a good exercise, a good spiritual discipline, because so much of what we say on social media, in responding to the world, is not doing anything to soften anyone's heart. And so it's like, if you believe that this is true, are you sharing it in a place in any manner which is going to soften someone's heart? And so many times how we respond to things on social media is not soft, not softening anyone's heart. And so then it's like, well, then, this isn't the occasion to share it.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, um, stupid things, like, well, god made adam and eve, not adam and steve, or just you know, uh, some, or things that seem like they're like they're biblical, like like, okay, we're going to reclaim the rainbow, and I see memes like that shared on social media all throughout Pride Month. And it's like, okay, yeah, god made the rainbow as part of the Noah and the flood and a promise, but in the way that we share that on social media as a response to Pride Month, is that actually softening anyone's heart or is it further hardening their hearts, like for the people you have on your social media account who are struggling with sin? Is this going to bring them closer to you and give you opportunities to actually share hope with them? And most of the time, the answer is probably not, and so we need to evaluate and maybe sometimes just be silent and we don't need to respond to everything that we see, especially online.
Speaker 1:I would say the major thing, because I don't try to claim when the Lord's going to work. So I tried to stay clear of when, when, like I don't want to take away the opportunity that maybe the Lord's going to use someone in in a thing. So I never say like full blown, wipe the table, don't do this. Um, you know, because then you think about Jeremiah and the things that he was doing and you're like man anyway. Think about Jeremiah and the things that he was doing and you're like man anyway. So my point you know it's okay to pray before you post something on social media. You know that was something that I talk a lot about, what I learned from my wife. My wife's a really wise woman and, flynn, you're wise too.
Speaker 2:I'm just a fool with my foot in my mouth. But yeah, I mean I understand that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I mean, I am constantly encouraged and it really does become a normal occurrence. Now it's okay to delete what you're going to write and pray about it and think before you hit post Like you have time you don't have, you don't have to have anxiety and post it right that moment, you know, and that's comes to responding to people that write things. I mean, like you said, it's a whole other social media conversation. But yeah, I mean, pray before you are posting these things, especially when it's something that's hostile in a conversation Politics, you know, same-sex, transitioning, all these things they're already agitated. It is not your responsibility to bring more agitation and poke the bear.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, and so I love that I don't want to tell people not to post anything on social media, because it should be a medium we use to give hope. So absolutely, I love that. Maybe pray before you post something or before you comment on something that would be a good practice.
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, and the other thing, too, is like we were talking about before we went on here. We've mentioned it here. These are souls, these are people who are going to live forever, and we were once in darkness. Right, we were delivered from darkness into light. And what's worse in some of I don't want to say worse maybe that's the wrong way of saying it but if I'm a Christian and I have pride over somebody else, judgment or pride over somebody else in that sense that I'm somehow better than they are, I almost feel like that's worse. I should know better, right, you know, the person that doesn't know better, that's just, in their sin, lost. I mean, they have the ability to respond to the gospel we're not saying that, but you know they're lost. I mean, they have the ability to respond to the gospel we're not saying that, but you know they're lost.
Speaker 3:And I was talking to the young man that I guarded with and I said it's no surprise that the world is the way it is. It's getting worse and worse. This is no surprise. We live in darkness. How can you expect someone that lives in darkness to function without as if they're living in the light? Well, I'm almost glad you know you go back you said 20 years ago, but you go back 30, 40 years ago.
Speaker 3:We had this veneer of Christianity in our country. Yes, but I don't, I'm not so certain. We were that Christian 20, 30, 40 years ago. I think we had a veneer of outward Christianity. I'm sure there were, you know, maybe some more solid churches and a little bit more Christianity here and there, but what we really had was sort of a traditionalism Christian traditionalism I wouldn't say necessarily what we would call born-again Christian movements going on. Now we did have some of the Jesus movement and things going on in the 60s and other things that have happened. Thankfully, some of that was good, some was not. But you know, the reality is we as Christians are accountable because we know better, we live in the light, we have the Holy Spirit inside of us.
Speaker 3:So it is so easy to make a knee jerk reaction to somebody's comments or to feel like somehow we are fighting against something. We're not fighting against anything. We're there to share the gospel, the beautiful good news that we have been entrusted with by our savior, and so if we're going to post something, I guess my, my thought too, is, yeah, pray before, pretend that person is standing right in front of you and remember they're a soul that jesus died for and I. One thing I heard early on, and it just convicted me, was you could win an argument and still lose a soul. And Christianity is not about winning an argument. It's not about an intellectual debate about morality versus immorality. That is not Christianity. Christianity is the truth versus the lie, and you mentioned it earlier, bradyady.
Speaker 3:What are the lies that are really holding people back in second timothy chapter? What is it? Chapter four or somewhere around there. Chapter three, maybe, know this in latter times, men, you know, perilous times will come and men shall become lovers of themselves, and then it goes on to talk about all the fruits that come with that. And we're in that time. You know we're in a time of self-love, self-exploitation, exploration and exploitation.
Speaker 3:And you know, the thing I was thinking as you were talking too is you know, back probably in the 80s, the old adage was if it feels good, do it. And then you know, in the 90s and the early 2000s, if it feels good, believe it. And I think we're in a generation now where, if it feels good, that's who you are. You are what you feel. It's not a matter of just what you do or what you believe. It really is who you are, and a lot of that has been geared and generated and pushed by social media. It's not a conspiracy, it's just the world we live in. But we as Christians are not what we feel, and so you might feel threatened, you might feel frustrated, you might feel all these things. You might feel a little bit mad about certain things, sad about certain things, but we are not our feelings.
Speaker 3:So, for the believers out there, certainly our encouragement is please move beyond your feelings, move to the Lord. Remember these people are our souls, real people that Jesus died for. So just be wise as you're sharing. Is it edifying? Is it truthful? You know Jesus said if you stay in my word, the truth will set you free. So we do want to share God's word with people but, like you said, it might not be sharing a specific verse about homosexuality being a sin. It might be. They might need to hear that it is sin, but there might be a whole lot of other things going on. They need to know that God is the creator. They need to know that the Bible is true. They need to know that Jesus died for their sins. They need to know a whole lot of stuff that's in scripture. God didn't just give us one verse about homosexuality being a sin. God gave us an entire book filled with 66 books, and they all point to Jesus, not to us, absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's such a great point and so many times I hear people ask how do I convince this person? They're claiming to be a Christian or they believe in the Bible, but they believe that the Bible isn't clear on homosexuality or that these passages don't actually condemn homosexuality as we practice it today. And you know we can be confident of all those verses. There's about six passages of the Bible and we could spend all day talking about them and dissecting into them. We're not going to do that today, but it's like, regardless of those handful of scriptures, we can look to all of God's word and usually when people are misinterpreting those passages, like 1 Corinthians 6 and Romans 1 and Leviticus and Sodom and Gomorrah, and claim well, this isn't actually talking about modern-day homosexuality, this is talking about rape or pedophilia, or the Bible or homosexuality is just inserted in the Bible in 1946.
Speaker 2:Usually they have a very different picture of all of Scripture. They have a very different hermeneutic, so it's like we need to look at the bigger picture. It's like what do you understand about the Bible in general? How do you believe the Bible has authority in our lives? How do you believe in inerrancy of Scripture? And usually their problem is much bigger than how they interpret those six passages, you see that their problem is how they interpret all of Scripture, and so, for many people who claim the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality, they actually need a very different picture of all of scripture, and so, instead of just focusing on well, I need to convince them that this one passage condemns homosexuality. They probably have some bigger theological issues to also work through that we need to come alongside them and help them understand Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Because I mean, if you left, if you left a non-believer convinced that the Bible did condemn homosexuality, they can still say yeah, but the Bible is just man's book.
Speaker 3:So at the very end of the day, you could still convince them that the Bible says that and they have no more trust in God's word because they're still left with it being man's book, whereas if you start from it being God's book, well then everything else will fall in place it really will as you start searching the scriptures. But, yeah, starting points really do matter. That's a great point.
Speaker 1:Yes, Well, man, I really appreciate you making time and meeting with us again. Tell everyone where they can find your resources the website and YouTube channel.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. My ministry is Calibrate Ministries and so calibrateministriescom, so go there. There's resources with a podcast which is Calibrate Conversations, and so you can find Calibrate Conversations on YouTube or all the podcasting apps. But all the links to all that is on our website, calibratedministriescom, and there's info there on, like, the parents ministry. If you're interested in having me come and talk at your church or conference or anything, contact me through the website. If you want info on anything, calibratedministriescom.
Speaker 1:Awesome man. Yeah, I strongly encourage everyone to go watch some of those videos he's got. He's got some really um good resources over there that navigate these waters, because there are a lot of specific rabbit trails, uh, that we have barely scratched the surface today, but absolutely I do pray, as, as we started, I do do pray.
Speaker 1:People heard our concern for you, our genuine love for you, and it's not cliche, it's not this oh, we're supposed to love you. We truly do love you and we want you to really know that full propitiation, that full love and satisfaction from Christ, that full love and satisfaction from Christ. So, yeah, we strongly encourage you to comment and get some kind of feedback. Reach out to someone if there's a Christian in your life or if you don't have someone, reach out to one of us three and I'll leave it from there.
Speaker 3:So anything you guys want to capitalize on or end with before we go. I just want to end with John 3, but go ahead, brady, what did you want to?
Speaker 2:say. I want people to know that whatever you're struggling with, there is hope. God's grace is efficient and he died for us all and he died so that we could be free. And please reach out. You can't do it alone. You weren't meant to do it alone, and I many times tell people you can't expect the process of discipleship or you can't expect the results of discipleship without going through the process of discipleship, which involves confession and community and people around you. So please take that step. If it starts with one of us on the screen right now, then that's awesome. Start with one of us and tell someone and there is hope.
Speaker 3:Amen, Absolutely, Absolutely Amen. I'm going to read John chapter, three very familiar verses, but I just want to leave people with 3.16 and 17. It says, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever and that really does mean whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. And just don't let your flesh don't, let your feelings don't, let the enemy don't, let the world don't, let your community tell you otherwise.
Speaker 3:It's just too easy to put off our eternity till tomorrow, which we're not guaranteed to have. So just trust in the Lord and turn to him. He is calling you to him. Anybody who wants the water of life, Jesus said, come freely and he will give you water of life to drink. So that is our invitation and that's to everybody, including you, no matter where you're at. You don't need to clean up in the water of life to come to him. You need to come to the water of life to be clean.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen. Yeah, that's what a promise. Cool. We'll leave it with that. Thank you again, brady, and we'll see you guys on the next one. Thank you all.
Speaker 3:Thank you, see you guys.
